tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.comments2023-07-25T21:57:31.620+07:00onejustworldน้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์http://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-33148040990876888262011-05-20T10:37:08.302+07:002011-05-20T10:37:08.302+07:00We should all be weary of the Heartless Han Chines...We should all be weary of the Heartless Han Chinese, the past will repeat itself and they care for nothing but the advancement of communist china, scum of spirit, scum of life words cannot describe the evil they embody. I sincerely hope that they get what they give.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-59538262117660290082011-02-20T04:01:50.501+07:002011-02-20T04:01:50.501+07:00This article is incredibly moving and disturbing a...This article is incredibly moving and disturbing and I will never stop protesting until tibet is free.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-85790579043041201422010-08-27T06:30:33.754+07:002010-08-27T06:30:33.754+07:00Thanks for dropping by. My wish and purpose in wri...Thanks for dropping by. My wish and purpose in writing, I guess as much as yours, is that more people become aware of the true nature of the occupation and situation in Tibet. <br />Though the numbers are heavily stacked in favour of the Han overlords, the racist nature of this construct called ‘china’ is the very seed and precursor for the inevitable, violent, collapse. No people can, and will be repressed and disenfranchised for such extended periods of time, notwithstanding the unimaginable forbearance and magnanimity displayed by the Tibetan people since their brutal subjugation.น้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์https://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-87289120845437528382010-08-26T21:43:04.076+07:002010-08-26T21:43:04.076+07:00Very interesting reading! It is my belief that the...Very interesting reading! It is my belief that the Chinese system will collapse eventually, in the same manner as the Soviet Union, and Tibet will be free again.<br /><br />I took the liberty of referencing your page on my blog at http://www.frogenyozurt.com where I write, among other topics, about the Panchen Lama controversy.Wilfried F. Vosshttp://www.frogenyozurt.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-60793513208468442742010-08-19T17:02:14.014+07:002010-08-19T17:02:14.014+07:00It is indeed heart-breaking to read this well docu...It is indeed heart-breaking to read this well documented reality from this scource of experiential work. Anyone who is a just human being may find a box of kleen tissue papers is not enough while reading this. The beautiful religion, culture and language of Tibetans over centuries should be preserved if civilization is still living in this world. As an overseas Chinese, I think: TIBET WERE FREE BEFORE HAN INVASION, AND SHOULD BE FREE. COLONIALISM IS OUTDATED & AGAINST HUMAN DIGNITY. <br />Nying Top BarmaMINDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11422574362854390560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-35937868411117940382008-09-29T01:37:00.000+07:002008-09-29T01:37:00.000+07:00Wednesday, September 17, 2008Pressure mounts on th...Wednesday, September 17, 2008<BR/><BR/>Pressure mounts on the Dalai Lama to solve the problem of religious freedom amongst Tibetan exiles<BR/><BR/>News Update from Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable Society, Delhi, India, September 16 2008<BR/><BR/>Delegation from the European Tibet Support group urge a resolution to the conflict<BR/><BR/>Recently, five delegates from the European Tibet Support group came to Dharamasala. They said:<BR/><BR/>“For the last few months, Shugden devotees have protested widely. They are alleging that there is no religious freedom in the Tibetan exile community. A lot of world have picked up on this news and people are starting to pay attention to the issue.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, we are fighting for religious freedom in Tibet. When there is a claim of a violation of religious freedom amongst Tibetan exiles, it is difficult for us to do our work.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, it would be good if you could solve this problem among yourselves.”<BR/><BR/>The speaker of the Tibetan parliament and some others said that they would discuss the issue during the session and invite the European delegates. However, Kalon Tripa Samdhong said there was no need to invite them since it is a Tibetan issue, and that they are not yet ready to reply to the European delegates.<BR/><BR/>Court proceedings against the Dalai Lama and Kalon Tripa Samdhong<BR/><BR/>The first hearing was held at the Delhi High Court on September 12. The lawyer for the Dalai Lama and Samdhong Rinpoche sought more time, surprisingly saying that they could not reply yet. They have sought an extension until November 19 2008.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-15798515589085455422008-09-09T15:23:00.000+07:002008-09-09T15:23:00.000+07:00Hi onejustworld'The dissemination of anonymous pam...Hi onejustworld<BR/><BR/>'The dissemination of anonymous pamphlets full of lies, in a smear campaign more like it is coming straight from the CCP’s own Propaganda-Lies Unit.'<BR/><BR/>Sadly they aren't lies - I know it's convenient to brand the protestors as Tibet bashing cult foot soldiers but please do us a favour..<BR/><BR/>'Propaganda foot soldiers taking to the streets with their bizarre accusations to publicly vilify and embarrass the Dalai Lama , which, by any examination, has no basis in fact whatsoever.'<BR/><BR/>There is so much evidence now of religious persecution against the Tibetan people by the Dalai Lama and his government..what about justice for them? Is that irrelevant?<BR/><BR/>'Ask, are these the actions of true Buddhists, who by virtue of just simply claiming to be ‘Buddhists’ would refrain from any of these actions?'<BR/><BR/>Who has decreed that Buddhists cannot engage in strong actions in order to help others?<BR/><BR/>'Are these the deeds of anyone having even a seed of compassion, concern, or just the least bit of consideration for the effects of their activities, and for the implications to the Tibetan cause?'<BR/><BR/>The implications for the Tibetan cause coming from this unlawful policy of Buddhist apartheid are horrific. How wonderful for everyone affected if the Dalai Lama can reverse this disastrous policy or at least agree to some dialogue.<BR/><BR/>I know it's inconvenient but please, as Harry has also asked, check this out - we are not against Tibet, we are not pro China, this issue has two sides and we wouldn't be protesting without good reason. Thanks...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-18996840399953634622008-08-29T00:41:00.000+07:002008-08-29T00:41:00.000+07:00Hi Veracity,Thanks for your post, it provides a le...Hi Veracity,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your post, it provides a less one-sided view of the situation.<BR/><BR/>I hope the differences on both sides aren't like you say irreconcilable. Perhaps it's a bit naive of me to hope, but i would love to see Buddha's wisdom get the better of both parties so that the issue may be resolved peacefully. Being a New Kadampa myself i rely on other Buddhist deities like Shakyamuni and Mother Tara, so if DS is really spirit, i hope my other sources of inspiration will help me gain the wisdom to understand the situation.<BR/><BR/>I think you offer some good arguments in your post. I dare not offer my own opinion however, as you might think i am twisting them, and many insults may<BR/>follow :)<BR/><BR/>"Nechung indeed is a worldly spirit, and no one makes a secret of this. It is a deity invoked by the TGIE for their worldly guidance and is not propitiated as part of Buddhist practice."<BR/><BR/>This is true. Instead of misinterpreting your views, i would like to ask you more about this, as i am not really aware of how the government works, and i don't know how the DL juggles his religious and political responsibilities.<BR/><BR/>DS is a religious issue. Ok so perhaps he is a spirit and he is causing political problems in Tibet, but since many Buddhists worship this deity, spirit or not, it is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed from within the Buddhist community. This is where, for me, Nechung doesn't fit. If the job of Nechung is to give political advice, why does the DL rely on him to decide on the future of an until now (rightly or not) Buddhist practice? So after 40 years of practice he decides to check the books to find out more about DS, and he doesn't like what he sees. Fine. But then, just to make sure, he asks the political advisor's advice? I know for sure who Atisha would have asked if he was in doubt of a practice that his disciples were engaging in. He would have<BR/>consulted his friend and advisor Arya Tara, an enlightened being, not a regional spirit.<BR/><BR/>If HH instead told us: "just had Maitreya on the line and he reckons<BR/>Shugden is a spirit" i think it would have been a lot easier for the DS practitioners in Tibet and India to give up their practice. Perhaps he wouldn't have had to put up a ban at all, as DS practitioners used to have a lot of trust in him; they would have believed him saying Maitreya had spoken with him. I mean surely it would be better to tell a lie that blind faith will believe, than ostracize his own people and followers right?<BR/><BR/>Of course, if DS is a spirit causing political havoc, i have no probs with these issues being dealt with from a political perspective. It's just the religious side of the issue which i fail to comprehend.<BR/><BR/>Another thing which i don't get is how DS harms the DL's life span. He<BR/>practiced for 40 years and he is in his 70s. The pieces of the puzzle don't fit, is it just my obtuse and confused mind?<BR/><BR/>If you understand these things more than me, please shine me a light as i am in the dark. <BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/><BR/>HarryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-43339711353241773922008-08-28T05:42:00.000+07:002008-08-28T05:42:00.000+07:00Well if only a small, incremental step toward a re...Well if only a small, incremental step toward a resolution of this controversy ensued from this exchange, then it was all worth it.<BR/><BR/>Not sure if any of the points made resonate with DS practitioners.<BR/><BR/>To me personally, Buddhism is what the blog attempted to describe, yet all the various traditions have their own unique way of pursuing these aims.<BR/><BR/>And each one, in their own right, must see their tradition as a valid vehicle to achieve the core tenets, so perhaps it would suggest that there is great flexibility in Buddhism, and nothing should be seen as set in concrete.<BR/><BR/>Traditions evolve and adapt, ‘modernise’, or find their way back to ‘core values’, whatever the case may be, as expounded in Buddhism, ‘nothing is permanent, bar change’!<BR/><BR/>So this should be taken into account on both sides of the arguments, and the innate wisdom of Buddhism should perhaps be called upon with more sincerity.<BR/><BR/>I sincerely hope that on both sides there will be a greater willingness to go forward and seek a genuine resolution, without having to resort to means ostensibly unbecoming of Buddhists and destroy the Sangha in the process.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps a re-examination of the Vinaya Piṭaka might be helpful on both sides.<BR/><BR/>Regards<BR/>veracityน้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์https://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-5119829995866783162008-08-27T14:55:00.000+07:002008-08-27T14:55:00.000+07:00veracity - thank you - accepted. i and others ha...veracity - <BR/><BR/>thank you - accepted. i and others have used strong language here and in many other places to refute what we see as "misrepresentation, disregard, taking out of context and inversion of" the truth; but like you, our intention has never been to insult. i also apologise sincerely if i've caused anyone any upset.<BR/><BR/>in fact, i think you've summarised the key that can unlock this whole deadlocked situation:<BR/>"And to the Dalai Lama, I would tender the advice that perhaps more dialogue would be helpful, rather than expect instant acceptance of such a drastic edict, for what is by all accounts a very dear practice to the followers concerned, regardless of the rights or wrongs thereof."<BR/><BR/>i think everyone - as you say: regardless of ther views on the issue - can agree that this is the only way forward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-85725084342107179172008-08-27T09:36:00.000+07:002008-08-27T09:36:00.000+07:00Harry and whoever.There are obviously irreconcilab...Harry and whoever.<BR/>There are obviously irreconcilable differences, which divides both sides into diametrically opposed factions.<BR/><BR/>The Dalai Lama and many in his camp see Dorje Shugden as a worldly deity, and one that even has ill intent, and sows disharmony and derision.<BR/>DS followers on the other hand see him as an enlightened Buddha, an emanation of Manjushri even.<BR/><BR/>Historical evidence strongly suggests that the former view has more credence than the latter.<BR/>The latter view is of very recent emergence, and has not been observed in earlier writings.<BR/>If DS were an enlightened Buddha, it would unlikely be invoked through an oracle, like Kuten Lama, who happens to be a close relative of Kelsang Gyatso.<BR/><BR/><BR/>DS is also a fairly recent addition to the kaleidoscope of such deities, and is not in any way an age old tradition intrinsically bound to the Gelugpa School, as DS followers wish to portray it.<BR/>Far from being a destruction of the lineage, it is a restoration of the tradition founded by Je Tsonkhapa, the ‘great reformer’. <BR/>And this is one of the raison d'être of NKT, the maintenance of the purity of the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa.<BR/><BR/>It is idle to speculate on this, but perhaps Je Tsongkhapa might have approved of the dispensation of this controversial deity, which was unknown to him back in the 14th century, and him being the Great Reformer.<BR/><BR/>Nechung indeed is a worldly spirit, and no one makes a secret of this.<BR/>It is a deity invoked by the TGIE for their worldly guidance and is not propitiated as part of Buddhist practice.<BR/><BR/>The political dimension is undeniable, which runs deep in the Tibetan community in exile.<BR/>The Chinese have gotten a very strong hold over some DS practitioners through their open promotion and funding of this practice in Tibet proper, and financially assisting such followers in exile.<BR/><BR/><BR/>The western aspect is marked by very murky and dubious machinations by the leaders involved.<BR/>There are old axes to grind, clear affiliations with the Chinese, grievances from the past such as dismissals from monasteries, loss of influence in a more democratic TGIE, and having DS’s nature examined and found wanting.<BR/>The most charismatic aspect, point of difference, and core attraction for Buddhist teachings these leaders have to offer to westerners is DS, the foundation of their existence as venerated Geshes in the west.<BR/>These DS followers find themselves a minute minority and ostracised by their peers, for better or worse.<BR/>There is also the apparent rewriting of history to strengthen their case; the exaggeration of DS’s importance, historical significance and his nature. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I would equally urge the Tibetan community in exile to refrain from gratuitous marginalisation of such DS followers.<BR/>They should first examine their Buddhist principles and apply more discernment and compassion when dealing with these people.<BR/>Though this seems such a highly charged and sensitive issue that inevitably emotions run over on both sides, and prudence and common sense becomes a casualty.<BR/><BR/>And to the Dalai Lama, I would tender the advice that perhaps more dialogue would be helpful, rather than expect instant acceptance of such a drastic edict, for what is by all accounts a very dear practice to the followers concerned, regardless of the rights or wrongs thereof.<BR/><BR/>And as far as insults are concerned, on reflection I would refrain from expressing my view, it was provoked through the constant misrepresentation, disregard, taking out of context and inversion of my arguments.<BR/>For any offence I sincerely apologise.<BR/><BR/>Take care.น้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์https://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-91842758273327576692008-08-26T03:10:00.000+07:002008-08-26T03:10:00.000+07:00I don't admit defeat, Veracity, i can simply see t...I don't admit defeat, Veracity, i can simply see that you're not open to the possibility of being wrong. And you are not open to any idea that opposes that of Shugden being evil and his followers Nazis. Also despite your denials you insult me pretty much in every one of your posts, i have no need to explain. Would you feel like sharing your views with someone who has just said that they have seldom come across such a confused, unapprised and obtuse person as you? For the above reasons i don't see any reasons to carry on.<BR/><BR/> The readers will be able to make up their own minds.<BR/><BR/>Ps: If in any of my posts i was a bit provocative or you felt me to be insulting i apologize. If you can't give me any credit as DS practitioner judging the controversy, at least give me some credit as a human being apologizing, i'm not a heartless drone believe it or not.<BR/><BR/>HarryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-67073635384894316132008-08-25T22:10:00.000+07:002008-08-25T22:10:00.000+07:00eracity - once again - still - with respect, your ...eracity - <BR/><BR/>once again - still - with respect, your points are almost entirely inaccurate. it's hypocritical (and embarrassing for you) to accuse Harry and, indeed, all DS practitioners, or the "blue-eyed warriors" of the WSS, of being ill-informed, and then to post such thoroughly misinformed and incorrect opinion as fact.<BR/><BR/>where on earth did you get the idea that relying on Dharmapalas is a pre-Buddhist, Tibetan Bon practice, or that the DL is trying to reduce the amount of spirit-propitiation in Tibetan Buddhism?<BR/><BR/>reliance on Dharmapalas is a tradition that extends right back to the very founding of Buddha's Vajrayana doctrine. it was only much later that it spread with Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism to Tibet and Japan, among other places, and then from those places to much of the modern world.<BR/><BR/>an authentic Dharmapala is a Buddha, or at least a Bodhisattva, and therefore relying on them is completely in accordance with Buddhist refuge.<BR/><BR/>there are also worldly protectors, such as the spirits bound by Guru Padmasambhava to help the Dharma in Tibet, but as these beings are not enlightened, nor have they realized ultimate truth, they are not reliable sources of refuge and no pure Buddhist relies on them as such.<BR/><BR/>while there is some debate over the nature of Dorje Shugden, there is none whatsoever about the nature of Nechung, nor that of the myriad of other worldly protectors propitiated in Tibet. you're clearly not aware that these practices of spirit propitiation have, far from being reduced under the current Dalai Lama's tenure, increased dramatically in recent years.<BR/><BR/>conversely, it is a characteristic of Dorje Shugden practitioners that they rely on and propitiate far fewer other protectors, especially worldly protectors, and instead rely far more on what, for them, is a fully-enlightened Buddha, a manifestation of Manjushri: Duldzin Dorje Shugden.<BR/><BR/>veracity - this is Mahayana Buddhism 101. your postings here betray an ignorance that really dismisses any right you can claim to post on this subject.<BR/><BR/>how dare you criticise, when you have shown yourself here to have such misunderstanding?<BR/><BR/>your points about Buddhism in your original article are well thought-out, well intentioned (as far as i can tell) and worthy of thought and discussion. but your later posts on Dorje Shugden practice and the Dalai Lama's ban on this practice have become more and more outrageous and inaccurate.<BR/><BR/>PLEASE - as you've repeatedly asked Dorje Shugden practitioners to do - educate yourself before spouting the TGIE's rhetoric for them, purely, it seems, on the basis of the Dalai Lama being the Dalai Lama.<BR/><BR/>if you don't even know what a Dharmapala is, how can you comment on Dorje Shugden?<BR/><BR/>you ARE being simply insulting now. for example, on what grounds do you imply, by suggesting that Dorje Shugden practitioners "should take a long and hard look at the merits, soundness, advantages and disadvantages this practice entails, and then decide if it really concurs with what one’s intentions are in practicing Buddhism in the first place" that they do not or have not done already this? EVERY Dorje Shugden practitioner i know - and i know a lot, both Tibetan and non-Tibetan - has, at some point in all this, sat down and taken a long, hard look at their practice. how could they not have done? do you really think that we could engage in these wrathful actions such as protesting, and incurred all the problems we've had to face as a result, WITHOUT having searched our hearts to check our motivation and beliefs? if so, you're a fool.<BR/><BR/>how can you say: "the ban appears not to be affecting western practitioners"? you ask: "Is DS propitiation really part and parcel, or necessary, or even conducive for the Dharma practice?" the answer is: yes, it is. Dorje Shugden is the Protector of the Ganden Oral Lineage, a core lineage of the Gelug tradition. if this Protector is destroyed, then his lineage is un-protected and will be destroyed: OUR lineage. if the Dalai Lama succeeds in rebranding Dorje Shugden practice as spirit worship, then he destroys this holy Dharma (his own lineage, for goodness' sake!). all Dorje Shugden practitioners, including your "blue-eyed warriors", will be branded non-Buddhists, and so our pure lineage will die out. who would want to find out about and practise a lineage that they believe amounts to no more than superstition and spirit worship? everyone would be put off, and they would thereby lose a precious opportunity to practise the holy Gedan tradition of Je Tsongkhapa.<BR/><BR/>as Kadampas and Gelugpas, we are this generation's custodians of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition. how can we allow it to be destroyed for the political gain of one man? how can we allow all future generations to be deprived of the opportunity to meet with, practise and realize the meaning of this holy Dharma? THIS is what we are campaigning for - not merely our Protector practice, but the life of the Tradition he protects.<BR/><BR/>please, veracity, THINK - maybe even research - before replying. if you're going to continue to post nothing but obtuse and insulting comments, i'm out of here.<BR/><BR/>i DO wish you all the best, but i also wish you'd see beyond your prejudice on this issue and display some of the intelligence and free-thinking hinted at in your original article.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-81788976488615808682008-08-25T16:53:00.000+07:002008-08-25T16:53:00.000+07:00This does not have to logically follow, for these ...This does not have to logically follow, for these masters were practicing this out of a long line of custom, and considered it as part of their ancient tradition, but not necessarily as core Buddhist practice.<BR/><BR/>In that sense Tibetan Buddhism is peculiar, in that it incorporates such non Buddhist practices from the old Bön traditions and allows it to flourish along with the core Buddhist practice.<BR/>Nevertheless, it clearly is NOT Buddhist practice, not according to the Dharma.<BR/><BR/>These kinds of practices of propitiating deities or spirits, or whatever one likes to call them, are really quite peculiar to Tibetan Buddhism.<BR/>They clearly stem from pre Buddhist times where there apparently were countless of these spirits. <BR/>Padmasambhava ‘redirected’ these demons’ focus to being protectors and guardians of Tibet.<BR/><BR/>The Dalai Lama’s attempt to curtail some of these practices, particularly where they are done so in excess, and where the deity is very controversial, as in DS’s case, are just a return to true Buddhist roots and tenets.<BR/><BR/>As a DS practitioner, one should take a long and hard look at the merits, soundness, advantages and disadvantages this practice entails, and then decide if it really concurs with what one’s intentions are in practicing Buddhism in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Is DS propitiation really part and parcel, or necessary, or even conducive for the Dharma practice?<BR/><BR/>Be that as it may, the ban appears not to be affecting western practitioners, but they carry out a vendetta on behalf of some who have ulterior motives, the ban is just a spurious rues.<BR/><BR/>And that’s the sad part, that NKT/WSS’ites are being misused and manipulated by some to perpetrate a very sordid campaign the Tibetan community does not need, does not deserve, and for which there is no justification.<BR/><BR/>They already fight the most perverted, depraved criminal cabal this planet was ever forced to witness, and some of the rhetoric used by these blue eyed warriors looks as if taken straight from their handbook.<BR/><BR/>Not sure where you stand on this, but there is a thing called cost / benefit analysis, though in your case there seems to be no benefit, as there is no loss in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Take careน้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์https://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-74009213684540163762008-08-25T15:06:00.000+07:002008-08-25T15:06:00.000+07:00hey veracity - come on, man - you started off with...hey veracity - <BR/><BR/>come on, man - you started off with some valid questions and points. but now (under a certain amount of provocation, granted) you're just being offensive.<BR/><BR/>"DS practice does, and always will bring nothing but heartache, derision and division to the practitioners.<BR/>It is by any measure not a Buddhist practice, and should be seen for what it is, a spirit worship and superstition, completely anathema to Buddhism."<BR/><BR/>Are you - seriously - claiming that a very large proportion of the great Gelugpa masters of the last century, including Trijang Rinpoche (who was a Ganden Throne-holder and root Guru of an entire generation of Gelugpa Masters including Lama Yeshe, Geshe Kelsang and the 14th Dalai Lama himself), Geshe Rabten, Song Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Kelsang, etc., etc., were/are ALL non-Buddhists, having broken their Refuge commitment by worshipping a spirit?<BR/><BR/>for the sake of your karma, please think very carefully before replying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-88103193703106395842008-08-25T10:09:00.000+07:002008-08-25T10:09:00.000+07:00Well if you’re beaten you might as well pretend yo...Well if you’re beaten you might as well pretend you’ve won, but never admit your defeat; that is if you actually realise you’re beaten.<BR/><BR/>Seldom have we come across a more confused, unapprised and obtuse lot, which is totally unable to grasp the most basic of argument, and displays a complete lack of ability for coherent, logical reasoning.<BR/>The Dalai Lama must be very wise in prohibiting the propitiation of this malevolent deity, for if this is the result, it clearly has devastating effects on practitioners’ minds. <BR/><BR/>Rather sad, inded.น้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์https://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-11190274091314275382008-08-25T09:33:00.000+07:002008-08-25T09:33:00.000+07:00Veracity,"Thanks again for your post, where the ar...Veracity,<BR/><BR/>"Thanks again for your post, where the arguments are marked by a whole lot of confusion, and the argumentation ranges from the oblique to the disingenuous."<BR/><BR/>There is no obvious reason for me to continue this discussion.<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry if i upset you in any way.<BR/><BR/>Take care,<BR/>HarryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-24329055177178798892008-08-25T09:01:00.000+07:002008-08-25T09:01:00.000+07:00Hi HarryThanks again for your post, where the argu...Hi Harry<BR/>Thanks again for your post, where the arguments are marked by a whole lot of confusion, and the argumentation ranges from the oblique to the disingenuous.<BR/><BR/>Testing of view: <BR/>I was referring to your purported discussions with other Buddhists where you even admitted to having lost the argument.<BR/><BR/>Vigorous defence:<BR/>I’m not attacking you, I’m laying out the facts as they present themselves.<BR/><BR/>Where there is smoke:<BR/>Well your language is rather revealing.<BR/>Have I shown ‘contempt’ for you?<BR/>Have I not indulged you in a discussion and give you a platform to air your views, no matter how specious and contrarian they may be?<BR/>Have I ever questioned your ‘honesty’?<BR/>You question my sincerity and my ‘intentions’.<BR/><BR/>Deep running political dimension:<BR/>You can’t reduce the Dalai Lama’s role to such simplicity. He has to take both aspects into consideration, political and religious.<BR/>Nechung is not a worship practice, but DS is. DS is no Buddha, but a worldly deity at best. Buddhism itself is taking care of all inclusive compassion, not the propitiation of a spirit like DS, this really belongs to the realm of superstition.<BR/><BR/>Western dimension:<BR/>First, calling the Dalai Lama a Liar, Dictator, Oppressor, Heretic, Opportunist, Persecutor, and many more such labels aren’t really the most obvious Buddhist thing to do. There are countless websites, leaflets and press releases disseminating this very message. This campaign looks rather like it’s coming from the CCP than so called Buddhist practitioners.<BR/>Second, and here your own words:<BR/>“In the case of NKT which is now a Western Buddhist tradition is no longer a part of Tibetan Buddhism.”<BR/>Why should the DL answer your letters if you’re not in any way connected to Tibetan Buddhism? If you’re completely separate, then why does the ban even concern you, which is a Tibetan affair?<BR/>And I surely was not referring to you blue eyed guys wanting to regain former privileges, as I said this is a Tibetan in Exile affair, you guys just latched onto it for the most intractable, malevolent reasons!<BR/>You have no gripe, no justification, and as you’ve said, you’re completely separate from the Tibetan Buddhist community.<BR/>Your involvement arises purely from the DS connection, which is fuels the derision on both sides.<BR/><BR/><BR/>The Gelugpa School:<BR/>By your own admission you don’t know much about it, well then get informed.<BR/>This runs through the whole lot of DS practitioners’ attempt at arguing their ill founded case, lack of knowledge, and what little they know is imbibed from their own sect, spoon fed and pre-digested spin.<BR/><BR/>Their scheming:<BR/>Please read and try to understand my points, Nechung is a Nyingma tradition, not DS.<BR/><BR/>So is it DS himself:<BR/>On evidence of the confused state of mind of DS practitioners, a case could clearly be made that DS propitiation itself is the cause for much of the woes surrounding this deity.<BR/>Here your own words:<BR/>“I would say that what is more powerful than a spirit is delusions and if people aren't doing enough to overcome them they will certainly get embroiled in worldly affairs of spirits and politics. Virtue is the best antidote against a spirit. Refute me.”<BR/>Very pertinent to DS practitioners, and your well advised to take your own advice!<BR/><BR/>The 14th Dalai Lama’s attempts to ‘modernize’:<BR/>Nechung is but a spirit, which is relied on by the TGIE, a political body, and is not part of the Buddhist practice by the Dalai Lama, or any Tibetans.<BR/>But DS is, and it is clearly a spirit worship which has wreaked devastation and havoc over the Tibetan community in exile, and within Tibet, and in large part thanks to the obtuse meddling by blue eyed DS followers.<BR/><BR/>All these points made by DS followers are taken out of context, mangled and turned upside down by the Shugden warriors, to score their malevolent points. They are so hollow and translucent, it is a mindboggling that they even think anyone would fall for these obtuse ploys.<BR/> <BR/>And the Machiavellian role these blue eyed followers, under the guise of Buddhism, are playing in this is sordid affair is a disgrace to themselves; and their cloaking themselves in Buddhist garb is disingenuous to the extreme.<BR/><BR/>DS practice does, and always will bring nothing but heartache, derision and division to the practitioners.<BR/>It is by any measure not a Buddhist practice, and should be seen for what it is, a spirit worship and superstition, completely anathema to Buddhism.<BR/><BR/><BR/>But I doubt if any of this will ever enter a DS practitioner’s mind, for the hold this ‘deity’ has on his followers’ mind is such that there is no room for enlightened debate.<BR/><BR/>Well take care and concentrate on some genuine Buddhist practice - it is designed to clear the mind.น้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์https://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-71475048055698376702008-08-25T03:27:00.000+07:002008-08-25T03:27:00.000+07:00Hi Veracity,I will once more refute some of your w...Hi Veracity,<BR/><BR/>I will once more refute some of your words, but if you can't refute my own material i won't bother continuing as we're not getting to any mutual understanding like this.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"You’re obviously on the right track in your observations of this controversy, seeking out contrary views and testing them against your own, a very Buddhist thing to do!"<BR/><BR/>I'm not testing your views against my own, Veracity, i'm trying my best to test them with common sense. And i'm sorry if i haven't been succesful in any case. Like i said before refute me.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"The demeanour of your vigorous defence of DS practice suggested otherwise though, but be it as it may, there is obviously something generating the need for it."<BR/><BR/>Am i more vigorous in my defense than you are in your attack? I fully accept your claim, i am vigorous in my defense. As far as i know there is nothing wrong with defending yourself from an attacker.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"It would be a foolish thing to say that where there is smoke there is fire, and this controversy is cloaked in a lot of smoke, too much to see the fire, almost."<BR/><BR/>No doubt. But the fire will easily become visible if we take a close look. It will be made easier if both parties collaborate. If you can't even give my honesty the benefit of the doubt<BR/>I can only assume you have no intention to collaborate or to add a wider range of possibilities to your one-sided view. After all you cannot deny that for now your view is effectively one-sided. That would be like a banana walking around saying: "i'm pink". I am maybe more inclined to the side Shugden but i am trying to see the other side as well. To be honest, your contempt isn't help me get a wider view.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"What transpired thought is the deep running political dimension this drama exhibits in the Tibetan exile community.<BR/>The other is the Chinese connection, their meddling, and fostering of the DS practice in Tibet, and support tendered in the exile community."<BR/><BR/>I have given you arguments on this before. One thing though: You do know that the DL is a politician don't you? And it is also common knowledge, for example, that he practiced DS for 40 years like i mentioned earlier. Also, although he claims that DS degenerates Buddhism into spirit-worship he relies upon a spirit himself (Nechung) for "intelligence gathering". Since Buddhas have way more "intelligence" than spirits why, being the great Buddhist master that he is does he not rely upon the first to gather some "intelligence"? Buddha's also posses wisdom which unlike intelligence has the means to judge what will bring people happiness and what will bring suffering. So again if he is so concerned about the welfare of his people and the world why does he consult the intelligent spirits instead of the wise Buddha's? He himself has admitted that it was Nechung who advised him to ban DS. I will also add that Buddha's are concerned with all living beings whereas Nechung is concerned with Tibet. So i agree this issue definitely smells of politics. If you can answer my questions and clarify my doubts on this you will be the first as i have not yet seen anything on the net that explains these things from a Buddhist perspective.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"The third is the almost unfathomable western dimension which is manifest in these high profile protests and venomous publicity campaigns against the Dalai Lama.<BR/>The motivation of these blue eyed warriors appears quite troublesome.<BR/>Where do they take their cue from, what is their gripe that it compels them to resort to such unsavoury tactics?<BR/>The outward appearance of their behavior is clearly at odds with that of a group of simple Buddhist practitioners."<BR/><BR/>If you analyze the campaign i think that you will find it far from venomous. The police have highly praised the WSS for their peaceful demonstrations. Something that may prevent one from seeing this is a strong bias towards the DL. As we can see all over the world people are scared of questioning him. I will again remind you, the reason we have resorted to protesting is because the DL has ignored our request for dialogue for a very long time. If you think we are inventing this fact and hiding his replies, why doesn't he show some proof that this is so? The fact is he has not answered any of our many letters so he has no basis for pretending. Also you condemn the protests as if it is wrong for Buddhists to protest. Please prove to me with Buddhist (or non-buddhist logic if you wish) how this is wrong. You say we are un-peaceful. How? Is raising you're voice un-peaceful? Then many good mothers have got it quite wrong. Are the words "stop lying" and "give religious freedom" un-peaceful? How when the very voices that are uttering them are pleading for peace? Where the Bhurmese protests un-peaceful? Are the demonstrations that take to the streets to try and avoid wars un-peaceful? Once more please refute my contentions if, like you say, they don't make any sense.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"The Gelugpa School, which poses the vast majority of the DS practitioners, lost its dominance from the old Tibet and is unwilling to submit to a more democratic TGIE.<BR/>Hence their ferocious opposition to any curtailment of their old privileges, identity, and practices."<BR/><BR/>One: Neither of the 4 schools have ever been involved much in politics. In Buddhism, Veracity, politics and religion don't tend to go well together. The great master, Shantideva, as well as many other masters strongly advised against their mixing. That the DLs happened to belong to the Gelug sect is one thing, but this doesn't mean that the whole Gelug tradition was politically involved. I repeat Gelug is a spiritual tradition, NOT a political party. I don't know a whole lot about this so of course i may well be wrong. But please explain how if so.<BR/><BR/>Two: In the case of NKT which is now a Western Buddhist tradition is no longer a part of Tibetan Buddhism. How can we be trying to regain control of something we are no longer part of, and have no interest in being? Do you think that if the DL died today, Kelsang Gyatso is going to run back to Tibet to try and gain political power? He's a bit to old for that don't you think? He's retiring next year and i doubt Kelsang Khyenrab has got much business in Tibet. Please explain in what way NKT are trying to gain political power in Tibet. Or if that's not what they want tell me what.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"Their scheming also would have DS replace the Nechung practice which has its roots in the Nyingma School, but is a practice of the Tibetan Government since the 17th century."<BR/><BR/>I quote, can't remember from where: Everyone is accusing DS of being a spirit, but no one denies the fact that Nechung is a spirit.<BR/><BR/>DS doesn't have it's roots in Nyingma, it has them in Sakya.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"So is it DS himself; has he taken such a hold on his followers that it is a self fulfilling prophecy that his influence results in disharmony, derision and sectarianism in the Tibetan community?"<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry but this is highly non-sensical. If DS is a minority, and proper Buddha worshipers are a majority, given the fact that Buddha's are way more powerful and influential than spirits, how come this spirit has overcome so many Buddha's? Nope sorry. I would say that what is more powerful than a spirit is delusions and if people aren't doing enough to overcome them they will certainly get embroiled in worldly affairs of spirits and politics. Virtue is the best antidote against a spirit. Refute me.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"As DS clearly is the centre of a huge amount of controversy, and has been for nearly some four hundred years, all evidence points to the malevolent influence this deity manages to cast over the Tibetan nation."<BR/><BR/>Since delusions are more problematic than spirits, and a non-deluded person can easily overcome a spirit through virtue i would be careful in blaming everything on a meddlesome poltergheist. Yes it is very easy to blame a spirit for the problems of a nation. I suppose the middle-east and the US are afflicted by spirits instead of greed for money and power.<BR/><BR/><BR/>-"The 14th Dalai Lama’s attempts to ‘modernize’ Tibetan Buddhism, is really a reform which dispenses with aspects peculiar to Tibetan Buddhism, which has incorporated many traditions and beliefs from the pre Buddhist Bön religion.<BR/>In this sense it really is a return to the core tenets and teachings of the Buddha, for all the spirit worship are really Bön traditions.<BR/>Buddhism would greatly benefit if this reform is allowed to succeed, and spirit worship is dispensed with for good."<BR/><BR/>Explain Nechung then.<BR/><BR/>I hope you are well,<BR/>HarryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-28798765740324526202008-08-24T11:41:00.000+07:002008-08-24T11:41:00.000+07:00Thanks again Harry for your spirited comments.You’...Thanks again Harry for your spirited comments.<BR/>You’re obviously on the right track in your observations of this controversy, seeking out contrary views and testing them against your own, a very Buddhist thing to do!<BR/>The demeanour of your vigorous defence of DS practice suggested otherwise though, but be it as it may, there is obviously something generating the need for it.<BR/><BR/>It would be a foolish thing to say that where there is smoke there is fire, and this controversy is cloaked in a lot of smoke, too much to see the fire, almost.<BR/><BR/>What transpired thought is the deep running political dimension this drama exhibits in the Tibetan exile community. <BR/>The other is the Chinese connection, their meddling, and fostering of the DS practice in Tibet, and support tendered in the exile community.<BR/><BR/>The third is the almost unfathomable western dimension which is manifest in these high profile protests and venomous publicity campaigns against the Dalai Lama.<BR/>The motivation of these blue eyed warriors appears quite troublesome.<BR/>Where do they take their cue from, what is their gripe that it compels them to resort to such unsavoury tactics?<BR/>The outward appearance of their behaviour is clearly at odds with that of a group of simple Buddhist practitioners.<BR/><BR/>So what is the common thread that ties all these actors together?<BR/>Obviously it is DS.<BR/>But not DS practice or the ban per se, this controversy goes back some three hundred odd years and runs much deeper.<BR/>The Gelugpa School, which poses the vast majority of the DS practitioners, lost its dominance from the old Tibet and is unwilling to submit to a more democratic TGIE.<BR/>Hence their ferocious opposition to any curtailment of their old privileges, identity, and practices.<BR/>Their scheming also would have DS replace the Nechung practice which has its roots in the Nyingma School, but is a practice of the Tibetan Government since the 17th century.<BR/><BR/>So is it DS himself; has he taken such a hold on his followers that it is a self fulfilling prophecy that his influence results in disharmony, derision and sectarianism in the Tibetan community?<BR/>The circularity here does not escape unnoticed.<BR/>One group feels the need to curtail and suppress the propitiation of this “deity”, as they see him as a worldly spirit intent on sowing discontent and disharmony.<BR/>Others see him as an emanation of Manjushri, as a fully enlightened Buddha, and a Dharma protector.<BR/><BR/>The question is really, how tolerant should the Dalai Lama be with the intolerant?<BR/>As DS clearly is the centre of a huge amount of controversy, and has been for nearly some four hundred years, all evidence points to the malevolent influence this deity manages to cast over the Tibetan nation.<BR/>So anyone persisting in propitiating this spirit either completely abrogates any concern for the welfare of the Tibetan nation, or is incapable of transcending the grip this deity exerts on his followers.<BR/><BR/>The 14th Dalai Lama’s attempts to ‘modernize’ Tibetan Buddhism, is really a reform which dispenses with aspects peculiar to Tibetan Buddhism, which has incorporated many traditions and beliefs from the pre Buddhist Bön religion.<BR/><BR/>In this sense it really is a return to the core tenets and teachings of the Buddha, for all the spirit worship are really Bön traditions.<BR/><BR/>Buddhism would greatly benefit if this reform is allowed to succeed, and spirit worship is dispensed with for good.<BR/><BR/>For the conquest of all emanations of the mind is Buddhism’s core tenet, the subjugation of tyranny the memes and genes!<BR/><B><BR/>We are all born gene machines and lean to become meme machines, hence Buddhism’s raison d'être, the freeing of man(kind) from such animalistic folly!<BR/></B><BR/>Take careน้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์https://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-52811766058859294842008-08-23T23:48:00.000+07:002008-08-23T23:48:00.000+07:00Veracity,"A lot of your contentions don’t make sen...Veracity,<BR/><BR/>"A lot of your contentions don’t make sense, neither in light of the facts, nor as a line of argument in itself. "<BR/><BR/>Please shine me a light. I gave you plenty of valid arguments. I love debate in Buddhism and i'm keen to practice.<BR/><BR/>"if you would like some light shone on this murky affair, then you should start to investigate beyond the bounds of your own comfort zone, the Shugden practitioners’ realm."<BR/><BR/>"I do invite you to do some more research and reading before you let all your opinions on this subject be set in concrete, as it seems they already are."<BR/><BR/>You have put me in a box. You seem to imply that everyone that comes under the influence of Shugden becomes unable to make any objective analysis. I wasn't happy with the NKT practitioners getting involved this year. I challenged and questioned my friends, and i did a lot of research before i came to my conclusions. Since then i have spoken to many more people and carried on my research. In this time i have only come across two people opposing DS who have given me much food for thought. One of them, who goes by the name of Namdrol, i am very unsure about because although he is very scholarly he is clearly (to my mind anyway) very infatuated with himself, and the other one, Tenzin Peljor, i am still studying, and have debated with. He beat me in our debate by the way. So as you can see i for one am not that scared of looking outside of my comfort zone. Are you?<BR/><BR/>"Btw. How does this ban personally affect you?"<BR/><BR/>It doesn't affect me as badly as those in India and Tibet. It's quite sad to be labeled as non-Buddhist though. I feel uncomfortable saying i am a Shugden practitioner sometimes because i know people may raise their eyebrows. The other day i hung out with some lovely Buddhists who were in my town to listen to the DL, but i kept my mouth firmly tight about being Buddhist myself. I would like to hang out with other Buddhists more often and that there weren't these stupid rifts. There is the knowledge that in my town people may being told in the other centres that we are non-Buddhist. So yes, the ban does indeed affect me.<BR/><BR/>Best.<BR/>HarryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-29119388678185287622008-08-23T18:51:00.000+07:002008-08-23T18:51:00.000+07:00for what it's worth, i search everywhere i can and...for what it's worth, i search everywhere i can and read everything i can find, from whatever source, in order to broaden my own understanding of this issue and to listen and give thought to all differing viewpoints so that i can make informed choices about how to act in this affair.<BR/><BR/>a distraction from spiritual practice? it can be, for sure, if i'm not very careful. in fact, it's very tempting at times just to bury my head in the sand and get on with my own "practice" whilst ignoring this horrible situation. but as i've indicated before, my understanding of karma - that the world i perceive is created by my own mind and actions - and my compassion for all those whose spiritual lives are being destroyed by the DL, just won't allow me to do nothing to help. after all, i took the Bodhisattva Vow many years ago.<BR/><BR/>simply, this is part of my spiritual practice, and my motivation is compassion.<BR/><BR/>i'm not trying to blow my own trumpet - i'm saying this because i believe i'm fairly typical of WSS supporters in this. in my experience, they're not the cultish drones you caricature.<BR/><BR/>as always, take care.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-49068106018663536842008-08-23T09:02:00.000+07:002008-08-23T09:02:00.000+07:00I just like to say this to all the people who have...I just like to say this to all the people who have taken umbrage at this post and feel that it unfairly chastises them, this is not the intention.<BR/>The intention is to get the issue aired and discussed.<BR/>Faults are made on both sides of such issues, but there are so many elements which come into play in this drama that it inevitably becomes a quagmire of claims and counterclaims. <BR/><BR/>I sincerely wish that some of the Shugden followers will find the strength and wisdom to seek out more particulars on this affair beyond their own ambit of their usual information sources.<BR/><BR/>In the meantime just concentrate on the real issue in life, the advancement of your spiritual progress towards your goal.<BR/><BR/>All this is just an unnecessary distraction, but it is only a distraction because one let’s it become one!<BR/><BR/>Take care all of you.น้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์https://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-17179309565906343012008-08-23T08:37:00.000+07:002008-08-23T08:37:00.000+07:00HarryWell thanks for your lecture, all very reveal...Harry<BR/>Well thanks for your lecture, all very revealing. It seems to say more about the state of mind of Shugden followers than the state of affairs regarding this controversy.<BR/>In all due respect, if you would like some light shone on this murky affair, then you should start to investigate beyond the bounds of your own comfort zone, the Shugden practitioners’ realm.<BR/>One of the trademarks of cults/memes is that follower don’t dare to look beyond their own confines for information for fear of having their own faith rattled.<BR/>A sure sign that they’re hooked on the hype spoon fed to them.<BR/>A lot of your contentions don’t make sense, neither in light of the facts, nor as a line of argument in itself. <BR/><BR/>I do invite you to do some more research and reading before you let all your opinions on this subject be set in concrete, as it seems they already are.<BR/><BR/>The breadth of your knowledge on this affair clearly appears as slim as the Shugden practitioners’ tenuous hold on credibility.<BR/> <BR/>If practising Buddhism has imparted you anything it should be the ability to judge things not on what your mind’s interpretation of it is, but what the facts are telling you. <BR/>But to be able to do so one must actively seek out the facts without fear or favour!<BR/><BR/>Happy investigations.<BR/><BR/>Btw. How does this ban personally affect you?<BR/><BR/>Take careน้ำหนักบรรจุภัณฑ์https://www.blogger.com/profile/07451527633697424356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8103337568570277749.post-57992984935252943812008-08-23T08:05:00.000+07:002008-08-23T08:05:00.000+07:00ok, well - thanks for posting my dissenting commen...ok, well - thanks for posting my dissenting comments. you're honest and fair in doing that, and i appreciate it.<BR/><BR/>you take care too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com