21.8.08
Buddhism an anti religion Religion?
Religion is a belief system based on faith in a supernatural being, power or entity, or the plurals thereof, which is usually regarded as omniscient, omnipotent and the creator or originator of all that we perceive.
These attributes imply that everything, our every thoughts and deeds, are under the scrutiny of this supernatural agency.
This leads to a prescribed set of conduct for the faithful to follow, and to the ceremonial worship of this deity, to please and appease it through rituals and practices.
Through the supernatural properties attributed to them, these deities acquire the exalted status of being considered divine, infallible, sacred and sacrosanct.
All this formalizes and institutionalizes the belief system into a religion, where followers have a prescribed framework of spiritual practices, beliefs, set of answers, and a code of conduct to lead their lives by.
Followers of religions usually find that their practise provides a measure of solace, succour, belonging, direction and meaning to their lives. And this is probably the core essence most followers would derive and behold of religion, though this may not necessarily concur with the intended function by the originator(s) of the religion.
Inherent in any belief system is the implicitly assumed quality of intrinsic wisdom, truth or knowledge it contains and provides.
Though some religions go beyond the simple prescription of dogma and explicitly claim exclusive rights to such ‘truths’, and also concurrently create demarcations for their followers from ‘non believers’, brandishing the latter as “infidels, heretics, judases, godless, agnostics, or any such label designed to denigrate non followers and to elevate their own flock.
One of the definitions of a meme/cult is the explicit insistence of exclusive tenure to the truth; in whatever guise this truth may manifest itself with the religion in question.
This is manifested in circulatory self attestation; a train of reasoning reliant on acceptance, at blind faith, of any one of the arguments in the circle.
One other defining notion for a cult is the portrayal of their dogma as being the true, primary essence of the core religion it derives its canon from; i.e. fundamentalism.
A third element employed by cults is fear; if a member does not wholly acquiesce and dedicate his life to, and faithfully follows the dogma, wrathful vengeance will be incurred.
Most religions contain elements of circulatory reasoning, fundamentalism and fear, so there is a fine borderline between a religion and a cult.
Belief systems and religions per se, and cults in particular, have a tendency for their followers to acquire traits of self righteousness, exclusivity, condescension and derision.
Their religion/belief becomes an all consuming aspect, point of reference, and the meaning of life itself.
Nothing has any meaning until we, us sentient beings, attach any such meaning to it.
And this really is the essence.
To make sense of, or understand anything with our ordinary mind, meaning thereof can only be derived through reference to past experiences, acquired knowledge, or accepted truths at faith.
As per the last point, belief in any religion or dogma literally is a leap of faith; for to believe is to subordinate logic, reason and analytical thinking to faith in the veracity of prescribed answers and meaning. Answers which are readily provided and enshrined in organized religions.
Now what if there were a framework which dispensed with prescribed dogma, would negate the existence of intrinsic truth, and would not even tender prescribed tenets unless they could be verified as bona fide by the practitioner itself?
A framework where the practitioner is the discoverer, judge and verifier of truths him, or herself all in one, and progress on the ‘spiritual path’ is not advanced unless such verification has been accomplished at each step along the way.
Where referential thinking quintessentially is anathema, and deemed an encumbrance, and contrary to arriving at the truth.
Where in fact the conquest, and escape from the tyranny of the genes and memes is the prime, and quintessential focus of the practice.
Now, such a framework would in fact have to liberate the mind, allow unconditioned, analytical investigation and examination of any issue concerning mankind.
It would facilitate unprecedented personal growth, for humanity to achieve a new level of comprehension, interaction and approach to dealing with hitherto intractable problems besetting humanity.
If practised universally, this framework could even lead to mankind achieving a harmonious existence; humanity living in peace with itself, and in harmony with nature!
Buddhism is fundamentally at variance with the accepted definitions of religions.
It is indeed all of the above, and more.
Buddhism is:
• Non theistic; there is no supernatural, almighty being commonly referred to as God, Allah etc.
• Unquestioning faith is anathema to Buddhism. (see above)
• One’s fate is the result of one’s own actions: karma. There is no fate in the sense of punishment or reward dished out by a benevolent or vengeful deity.
• There is no surrender to any god, dogma or practice. It is in fact unconditioned, single pointed, mindful practice which is required.
• There is no dogma, word of god, or holy scripture transmitted through any agency, such as a prophet. The Dharma exists independent of any framework, it may be discovered by any sentient being.
• It is not enough to just do good with reward in mind. Compassionate deeds require true altruistic motivation for merit to arise. Attachment to good deeds defiles the actions and their karmic dividends.
• Buddhist compassion and considerations extend to all sentient beings; animals are part of our ambit of compassionate responsibility.
• Buddhism has neither heaven nor hell. The various realms described in Buddhism are the result of karmic effects. Just as this incarnation is a mind attached to a biological body, the mind can undergo experiences in different realms, hellish or heavenly, according to one’s karma. (dreams are but an indication of these realms the mind can undergo)
• Buddhism is not prescribed as a doctrine or dogma one needs to follow for ‘salvation’, and if a practitioner strays from the path there is no revenge or retribution.
• No almighty god is enacting upon, or interfering in our lives, or the universe. Dependent Origination, or Conditioned Arising explains all physical and psychological phenomena in scientific terms.
• No concept of blasphemy, desecration, sin, or infidel, for there is no sacrosanct dogma, relic or sacred deity.
Taking all the main points of difference into account, Buddhism in essence is diametrically opposed to religion.
Buddhist practices explicitly involve:
• The abandonment of all referential thinking. No truth to be accepted unless it is personally experienced and verified.
• The training of the mind to conquer the tyranny of the memes and genes; to be one’s own master; be in control of one’s destiny.
• Take responsibility for one’s own actions, for karmic effects will ensue from every thought, pronouncement and deed. There is no escape from karma. No vengeful god, fate or bad luck.
• The training of the mind to abandon all attachments and aversions, and pursue compassion with indiscriminate detachment. The four Immeasurables: Love, Compassion, Equanimity, Joy are a practice to clear the mind of preconditioned and ingrained desires and disdains arising from conditioned and referential thinking.
Buddhism in essence is the anti religion ‘Religion’ (or ‘Framework’, for want of a better expression), the Science of the Mind, and the tool for the liberation of one’s mind.
Alas, it seems that humanity is not ready to have that comfort soother religion pulled out just yet.
And the practice of Buddhism is, by any measure, but iron discipline & self control, and extremely diligent, arduous practice!
Footnotes:
Buddhism is self deprecating in the sense that it lays no specific claim to any truth or knowledge. In fact it describes itself as merely being the finger pointing at the moon, and once the moon is spotted the finger becomes redundant.
The appearance of Buddhism as a religion with ritualized worship, ceremonies and offerings by the masses is merely superficially valid.
Buddhas are the liberated minds of Buddhist practitioners having attained enlightenment; the objective of Buddhism. They chose to remain in this realm to assist and guide other sentient beings through their endless cycle of incarnations.
The reverence paid to the Buddhas is an expression of gratitude, as in the case of Buddha Sakyamuni for the discovery and dissemination of the Dharma, and Buddhas generally are revered for their guidance and compassion. Of course there are many variances in the many different traditions, but on the whole all the above points are applicable to Buddhist traditions in general.
It is apparent that Reincarnation, and the realm of Becoming, the state in between incarnations, has amply been validated through scientific research. Jim Tucker is but one such exponent, and has made his research available in his book ‘Life before Life’.
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29 comments :
Hi, I would be very grateful if you would allow my comment to be posted. I am an NKT practitioner and a member of the Western Shugden Society. They are definitely separate organizations -I recently demonstrated alongside 100 Tibetans - but I don't usually see any Tibetans other than Geshe Kelsang at NKT events. I had a lovely talk with a Tibetan monk in New York who was so haapy to have the opportunity to demonstrate and make his voice heard - but he was not an NKT practitioner...
You wrote that there are clear connections between the NKT and the Chinese. Would you be so kind as to point these out?
Or, if you are unable to do so, would you have the intellectual honesty and courage to edit your post and remove this fake claim?
Thanks!
ok - a free thinker? up for discussion and not censorship? then post this comment - i'd like to hear your response.
for goodness' sake, what is wrong with you people? where do you get this idea from that whatever the Dalai Lama says is true, and that anyone who opposes him must be a PRC agent? i read this stuff again and again, all over the 'net, with the occasional new slant (way to go, btw, insulting the entire Muslim population), and yet not one of you - not once - has put forward ANY evidence to back up your claims. you believe, without firsthand experience or a shred of evidence, that NKT is in league with the PRC. this is precisely the kind of blind faith you're talking about, is it not?
it's a shame, because i very much enjoyed all your points about the nature of Buddhism. i fully agree, and i have to tell you that this is why i was originally so drawn to Buddha's teachings in the form of NKT, and why, 16 years later, i'm still happily practising: BECAUSE GESHE KELSANG HAS ALWAYS TOLD ME TO THINK FOR MYSELF. your characterization is entirely false - his teaching you quote above is about reliance on a Guru, whoever that Guru is - he has NEVER told anybody they must see him as a Buddha. of course, there have been many mistakes made by unskillful teachers and practitioners, falling into exactly the kind of "blind faith/religion" trap you're talking about, but Geshe Kelsang has tried again and again to improve the Internal Rules of the NKT to avoid this and to give clear advice about correct reliance. he taught me some of my very favourite teachings of the Buddha: that you are your OWN enemy, protector and witness when good or evil is done; that you should test teachings and teachers before accepting them as you would test gold before buying it.
Geshe Kelsang was expelled from Sera monastery FOR REFUSING TO ACCEPT BLINDLY THE DALAI LAMA'S VIEW, a view that directly contradicts his own life-long, direct experience of Shugden practice, and the advice of some of the greatest and most highly-respected Buddhist Lamas of the last century.
as happyblog commented, NKT is NOT WSS, and there are many non-NKT WSS members with whom i've demonstrated, but a very large number of NKT practitioners are WSS members - of course!
so please try to understand: a true Buddhist will NOT accept the Dalai Lama's words simply because they are his. we - the WSS, including many NKT Buddhists - are protesting the Dalai Lama (NOT the exiled Tibetan community - what gave you that idea?), for one reason and for one reason only: to gain religious freedom for all Buddhists, including Shugden practitioners.
we are doing this because we are Buddhists, not sheep.
Dear Friend,
I would like to respond briefly to a few things on your blog if this is okay...
I am also an NKT practitioner and I do try sincerely to practice BuddhaDharma to the best of my ability.
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was "expelled" from Sera Monastery in the 90's once he had already received his Geshe degree from Sera in 1973. Now, I graduated from a university in the US and have a bachelors degree, could they expel me from this institution years after graduation, it would be a bit absurd seeing as you no longer attend the institution.
"Kelsang Gyatso about himself: “And if you view your Guru as a Buddha, you will get the blessings of the Buddha”."
--this is actually out of context, the quote is: "if you regard your spiritual teacher as a Buddha you will receive the blessings of a Buddha, as a Bodhisattva you receive blessings of a Bodhisattva, and as an ordinary being you receive nothing." It is a teaching on how to develop and maintain faith in a Spiritual Guide, which is essential to making progress on the Mahayana. He has never been a proponent of the idea that he is the quintessential spiritual teacher and has offered that people question him and the Dharma.
NKT about a deity:
“Dorje Shugden is a Dharma Protector who is a manifestation of Je Tsongkhapa”
--Well, if mind creates objects how can one say this is necessarily false? There is a story in the scriptures of a woman who received a dog's tooth but believed it to be a tooth a Buddha. With faith she made offerings and prostrations to this tooth and eventually received Buddha's blessings. Therefore you have to at least agree that a mind of faith creates objects of faith, and therefore we cannot say that for a particular person something (such as Dorje Shugden) necessarily does not function to transmit Buddha's blessings.
"Shugden worshippers appear to have clear connections to the Chinese government, which provides financial and propaganda support, and strangely finds the heart to foster and finance Shugden worship within Tibet when all other Buddhist practices are extremely curtailed."
I don't know if this is true or not. If it is true in Tibet, it is probably because the Chinese are willing to support anything the Dalai Lama doesn't like. At the same time it is a sweeping generalization to say that Shugden worshipers have a clear connection with the Chinese govt. Shugden worship existed a long long time before China invaded Tibet. There is no conspiracy here. I make my prayers to Dorje Shugden and I work hard for a living and do what I can to be generous to others with the money I make. I personally know many Western and Easter Dorje Shugden practitioners who also are in this same position.
"The propitiating of Dorje Shugden has assumed such central importance in NKT, that most Buddhist lamas, scholars, and the Dalai Lama no longer view it Buddhist practice."
--well, it is important, but we also rely upon Je Tsongkhapa, Manjushri, Tara, Buddha Shakyamuni, Maitreya, Avalokiteshvara, Heruka & Vajrayogini among others.
--Most Buddhist Lamas?
Well, this is not true. Geshe Rabten, Dagom Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, and primarily Trijang Rinpoche (DL's Teacher- who supported this practice until his death).
open to responses...
thank you
peace & love
D
Atisha's cook
Fair enough comments, thanks.
The main reason for the challenging tone on the NKT is their apparent inability to take a close look at the issues and decide if it is worth all the acrimony and derision it creates.
The intensity and ferocity of the vitriolic campaign against the Dalai Lama is such that no one seems to be able to believe that it is emanating from a Buddhist group, whatever their grievance may be.
As with every contentious issue there are always conflicting views, but the behaviour of these protestors, and the anonymous and open smear campaign don’t paint a good look for a group wanting to be taken as serious Buddhists.
If this post has made but one member rethink the tactics and prompted the re-examination of the issues, then it will have achieved its objective.
The end justifies the means.
I have no gripe with any one who has a genuine grievance with the Dalai Lama, and pursues the resolution by civilized means.
As for the comments on Islam, well what are YOUR views on a ‘religion’ which sees fit to issue fatwas against people?
Which propagates the concept of holy war and which seems to generate more than their fair share of zealots, willing to commit any crime in the name of their religion? Even just the mere appearance of a few cartoons depicting Mohammed in a newspaper generates the most ferocious backlash across the whole of the Muslim world.
Take care
veracity -
ok, man - thanks for replying.
i can understand how people might think that protesting, in person and on websites and blogs, is an un-Buddhist behaviour, particularly when the protests are aimed squarely at one person. all i can tell you, in our defence, is that these tactics have been thought about long and hard by all involved. pretty much *every* WSS member i know has had their own qualms about it. but in the end, we truly feel that this is the only option left to us. the Dalai Lama has almost succeeded in wiping out this valid Buddhist lineage from the Tibetan monasteries and lay communities in exile, and he is on record saying that the plan is next to obliterate it in Tibet, and then the West. already through his lies, many, many people in the West believe that Shugden practitioners are non-Buddhist, PRC-sponsored, spirit worshippers.
we tried to ignore this for many years, thinking that it was solely a Tibetan problem, with which we shouldn't get involved, and that it didn't affect us anyway. but the truth is that this is not the case - if we do not make a LOT of noise right now, and burst the bubble of his divine, infallible image, then this lineage will be lost to all future generations.
so we have to act wrathfully. we tried being quiet and respectful, and it accomplished nothing. now is the time for strong - even harsh - words.
in fact, it would be un-Buddhist NOT to speak out, perhaps out of fear of tarnishing our reputation, or the reputation of Buddhism in general. as unwholesome and distasteful as it is, he has left us with no choice.
I don’t wish to detract from the core Buddhist principles NKT espouses, it is the fringe activities and outward appearance they present, which is at issue.
If they find their way back to Buddhist principles then all the better for all concerned.
On balance there doesn’t seem to be a case for their grievance.
The ban simply is one of refraining from attending teachings by the Dalai Lama if you’re propitiating Dorje Shugden.
This surely is the Dalai Lama’s prerogative.
His views on the issue concerning this deity are widely supported amongst other Lamas and hence they’ve implemented equal bans and requests.
Again this must be their prerogative, to decide what they consider to be core Buddhist practices in their respective monasteries.
But the issue of Dorje Shugden goes much deeper of course.
The deity itself is at issue, his facilitation in sowing disharmony and sectarianism seems to be a real concern amongst most Tibetan Lamas. Enter into the mix the CCP’s meddling and the fact that exile Shugden practising Tibetans regularly commute to Tibet and the connections become all the more intriguing.
Amnesty International has received several complaints from Shugden practitioners, and AI has categorically determined that there is no case to answer by the DL or the Tibetan exile community.
The six murderers, Shugden supporters, of three monks in Dharamsala are enjoying ‘freedom’ in Tibet under the protection of the Chinese government.
The Chinese have picked up on this controversy and are exploiting this rift to the full.
They support Shugden worship in monasteries in Tibet and find ample money to support such monasteries.
Any Lama implementing the ban, or dissuading monks in his monastery to propitiate this deity is arrested.
They’ve managed to gain access to the exile community through their open support of Shugden worship within Tibet.
Such Tibetan worshippers of Shugden have been observed in the company of Chinese Embassy staff on occasions, and these poor Tibetan monks appear to have huge amounts of money at their disposal for their smear campaign against the ‘Dalai Clique’ and travel to Tibet.
The Chinese regularly boast and gloat of their success in sowing disharmony between the ‘Dalai clique’ and Tibetan exiles.
The rift in the exiled community in India is a direct result of the meddling by the Chinese, which doesn’t stop at the Tibetan border, but extends to India and beyond.
Shugden followers regularly travel freely to Tibet and back, they apparently have the money, and the permission to do so!
One of the actors, Kangchen Rinpoche, a Shugden proponent in the west who nominated himself for the Nobel Peace Price, openly supports the Beijing appointed Panchen Lama.
The political machinations by the Shugden practitioners in the Tibetan exile community is one of attempting to gain, or regain, the superiority and control over the Tibetan Government in exile.
The Dalai Lama’s reforms and democratization have not been accepted by the Shugden followers of the Gelug school within the Tibetan exile community, which have lost their dominance to a broader, democratic based Tibetan community in exile.
The Dalai Lama’s democratic reforms are the bone of contention, not the request to refrain from attending his lectures if you’re a Shugden follower!
Their attempts to have their particular version as the core school enshrined have failed thanks to the broad support of the democratic principles adopted by the DL and the TGIE.
There are so many actors, intrigues and layers to this opera that it warrants a book of its own, and even this wouldn’t do justice to the multifaceted aspects of this controversy.
People who practice Dorje Shugden worship "Will get many money, many disciples - and then many problems".
you know, your points above are really not correct at all. i believe you've been misinformed. here is part 2 of a 3 part video showing the nature and result of the ban: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP-mye4pQtU&eurl=http://shugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/dalai-lama-ban-on-dorje-shugden/ please also check out parts one and two. these videos aren't made by NKT, as far as i can tell - i'm pretty sure they're by the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi, Tibeta exiled Shugden practitioners, those of whom i've met certainly don't look rich/sponsored by PRC!
it IS a ban, it's not just "advice". i myself have heard the TGIE representative say that whatever the Dalai Lame says, is immediately carried out by the government in exile, and he laughed at the suggestion that anyone within the government would ever oppose his wishes. he said that this would never happen. it is not democratic, in anything other than name. for example, in a letter announcing that now there will be a complete ban on Shugden practice to the Dorje Shugden society dated May 22, 1996, Kalon Sonam Topgyal says:
“...concepts like democracy and freedom of religion are empty when it concerns the well-being of H.H. the Dalai Lama and the common cause of Tibet.”
of course, the PRC is very happy with ANY conflict within Tibetan society that potentially weakens the DL's political clout - i believe they are using this situation. but this is a result of the DL's ban - it is not a cause of the problem. i know very little about Gangchen Rinpoche's alleged dealings with PRC officials - which is what you're referring to as proof of ties between Shugden practitioners - but even if he is in some way involved (and as far as i know, the evidence amounts to no more than some photos of him shaking hands with a PRC official, and his support for the China-appointed Panchen Lama) - whatever the reality - you can hardly use this to prove that ALL Shugden practitioners are necessarily sponsored by the Chinese. for example, where's my cut? i've not seen any of this money! nor has NKT - NKT is a UK charity, whose accounts are audited every year and available for public scrutiny. there are no contributions from the PRC.
it's pretty lame, really, repeating these claims again and again and extrapolating a huge theory of conspiracy and corruption on nothing but the flimsiest and most questionable of evidence.
Amnesty International's conclusion was that this issue falls outside of their remit. notwithstanding the religious intolerance and social pressure exerted on non-conformers, there was no evidence of *torture or wrongful imprisonment by a governmental agency*, which are the criteria for Amnesty's involvement. they said that there was no case *involving torture, etc.* to answer by the Dl or TGIE. please - get your facts straight.
then - the horrible murder of Lobsang Gyatso and his two assistants in Dharamsala in 1997. over and over again this is brought up in the hope that eventually some mud will stick. once again, i'll repeat: this is a horrible crime. members of the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi were accused; they went voluntarily to the Police in Dharamsala, were held and questioned extensively over a couple of weeks, and were released without charge by the Indian Police. NO EVIDENCE OF INVOLVEMENT BY SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS HAS EVER BEEN VERIFIED, AND THE POLICE ARE STILL LOOKING FOR SUSPECTS. read the Dorje Shugden Society's detailed chronology of these events here: http://www.shugdensociety.info/historyEvents1997EN.html
veracity, you seem like a fairly intelligent person. PLEASE stop spouting the same old tired misinformation. check your facts - from both sides of the schism - before posting this stuff. i have a feeling - a hope, at least - that your motivation is to shine a light of truth into these proceedings. please don't be just another dupe, adding layer upon layer of muck and darkness.
you're a free-thinker, no?
atisha’s cook
Thanks for the post and the link. I shall perhaps respond in more detail if and when time allows.
At least this blog provided you with a platform to disseminate your version of this drama.
I have no problem with dissenting viewpoints, everyone can make up their own mind on the situation.
Though in this case, it is a rather intractable play, with the many actors and schemes, and the inevitable fog, mud and propaganda being flung and disseminated.
Take care
Hello Onejustworld/Veracity,
I stand by all of the previous posters about your material, they seem to have refuted it well.
I would like to tackle your claims about the ban, and Shugden practitioners being involved with the Chinese.
"The ban simply is one of refraining from attending teachings by the Dalai Lama if you’re propitiating Dorje Shugden."
Firstly i would recommend checking the word ban in the dictionary as it isn't really a Buddhist term. Second, it is by now more than clear and obvious that it is not just a ban on attending teachings. There is plenty of visual and scriptural evidence on this.
"His views on the issue concerning this deity are widely supported amongst other Lamas and hence they’ve implemented equal bans and requests.
Again this must be their prerogative, to decide what they consider to be core Buddhist practices in their respective monasteries."
Yes other Lamas support him but the question is: why? Is it out of their own wisdom or is it out of blind faith and/or fear? Perhaps there is a bit of both.
Sure they can decide what and what not to practice in their monasteries, but to strip people from a centuries old Buddhist tradition (which the DL practiced himself for 40 odd years) because the DL decides it's not Buddhist anymore is unheard of in the history of Buddhism. What next, is he going to going to decide Tara is in fact Cruela de Ville?
"The deity itself is at issue, his facilitation in sowing disharmony and sectarianism seems to be a real concern amongst most Tibetan Lamas."
Do you have any evidence of this? I'm keen to read. I would also suggest checking the dictionary for sectarianism. If you mean sectarianism from a Buddhist perspective explain how Shugden causes it and i will explain my view separately. NKTers are not at all a sectarian bunch, you won't hear a slanderous bad word from them about other traditions, they respect them and let them get on with their lives.
"Amnesty International has received several complaints from Shugden practitioners, and AI has categorically determined that there is no case to answer by the DL or the Tibetan exile community."
Fortunately AI aren't the only ones monitoring human rights. And also fortunately they are not the only ones who can do something about it.
"The six murderers, Shugden supporters, of three monks in Dharamsala are enjoying ‘freedom’ in Tibet under the protection of the Chinese government."
Police found no evidence suggesting it was DS practitioners who committed the murders. Simply, it was either Shugden supporters, somebody trying to frame Shugden supporters, or someone totally unrelated. Despite the lack of evidence this episode has being used and overused to try and prove that the practice causes problems. It is terribly sad what happened.
"The Chinese have picked up on this controversy and are exploiting this rift to the full."
The Chinese are being incredibly meddle-some, and we all wish they would keep their noses out of others business. It doesn't surprise me at all that they try and sidle up with anyone who is opposing the DL. If in India Shugden practitioners have let themselves be influenced by them this is very sad. But i think it is understandable since being persecuted must put one in a very scared and confused frame of mind. I doubt very much though that the W (Western) SS are going to buy into the political game of the Chinese. This would be a highly unwise move and would put their mission and their respective traditions at risk. I haven't actually thought this out very much, i am simply told by a strong gut feeling. It looks like a lot of you anti-shugden people are exploiting these facts and using them to discredit the WSS. I think you may be working up a big lie between your speculations. There is already a big rumour circulating the net, that the WSS is backed by the Chinese. I simply ask you to consider as people will believe your information to be true, and we already have enough confusion on both sides. It's best to keep it simple and rely upon what we are sure of.
"They support Shugden worship in monasteries in Tibet and find ample money to support such monasteries.
Any Lama implementing the ban, or dissuading monks in his monastery to propitiate this deity is arrested."
That the Chinese are being nice to Shugden practitioners may say more about the Chinese than of Shugdenites. Like i said earlier, the Chinese are powerful and manipulative, and it seems to me they will do anything to get on the wrong side of the DL.
"They’ve managed to gain access to the exile community through their open support of Shugden worship within Tibet.
Such Tibetan worshippers of Shugden have been observed in the company of Chinese Embassy staff on occasions, and these poor Tibetan monks appear to have huge amounts of money at their disposal for their smear campaign against the ‘Dalai Clique’ and travel to Tibet.
The Chinese regularly boast and gloat of their success in sowing disharmony between the ‘Dalai clique’ and Tibetan exiles. The rift in the exiled community in India is a direct result of the meddling by the Chinese, which doesn’t stop at the Tibetan border, but extends to India and beyond.
Shugden followers regularly travel freely to Tibet and back, they apparently have the money, and the permission to do so!"
Same of the same. Again this says a lot more about the Chinese. Yeah i'm sure some Shugden people have fallen into their hands. This is sad, but it doesn't really say anything about WSS.
By the way where do you get this info from i have not heard this side of the story before. I'd like to read some.
"One of the actors, Kangchen Rinpoche, a Shugden proponent in the west who nominated himself for the Nobel Peace Price, openly supports the Beijing appointed Panchen Lama."
And the fact that he supports someone who has something to do with China means he is politically affiliated with them? Blimey, i'd better stop watching the olympics or i shall next be accused of being a chinese spy! Nah.
"The political machinations by the Shugden practitioners in the Tibetan exile community is one of attempting to gain, or regain, the superiority and control over the Tibetan Government in exile."
Oh, when were Shugden practitioners ever a superior force over the Tibetan Government in exile? The DL used to practice DS if that's what you mean. This idea is hilarious and wholly unfounded.
"The political machinations by the Shugden practitioners in the Tibetan exile community is one of attempting to gain, or regain, the superiority and control over the Tibetan Government in exile.
The Dalai Lama’s reforms and democratization have not been accepted by the Shugden followers of the Gelug school within the Tibetan exile community, which have lost their dominance to a broader, democratic based Tibetan community in exile.
The Dalai Lama’s democratic reforms are the bone of contention, not the request to refrain from attending his lectures if you’re a Shugden follower!"
The DL may do as he wishes, and so may other Buddhist masters. Some people, like me (and i did read some of his material before coming across NKT. It simply didn't click with me. I respect him however), don't have a particular connection with him. That he condemns us for not following him perhaps says something about him. Until this day the DL was never the ultimate authority in Buddhism (Buddha was, he he), so why have things suddenly changed? We're not really that bothered if he doesn't want to let us come anywhere near him. We want him to lift the real ban and let people practice their religion freely, and to stop saying unreasonable things like DS harms his life span. He is in his 70's and he practised 40 years, do you know what the average age the other DL's lived to? 35. Do you not find this rather very odd?
"People who practice Dorje Shugden worship "Will get many money, many disciples - and then many problems"."
According to this statement, perhaps he should blame his present problems on his previous DS worship. However he blames the problem on others, and causes quite a bit of trouble in the process. I personally have practiced DS for 5 years, I have less money
than when i started and i my number of disciples remains the same: 0. Instead my mind has become a bit more peaceful, and as time passes i can feel a gradual switch from worldly motivations to more wholesome ones: love, wisdom, etc... So i can't go around saying Shugden is a Buddha, ultimately i don't really know. But i can speak my opinion to those who claim to know he is spirit who bestows worldly joys and then problems. How has this spirit given spiritual meaning to my life? How come i didn't get the extra cash and people prostrating at my feet? I could've banked on a few extra worldly funs!
Peace.
Harry
"with the many actors and schemes, and the inevitable fog, mud and propaganda being flung and disseminated."
Blimey, and what part are you playing? What mud and propaganda are you flinging? Why condemn something you are doing? You yourself admit that you exaggerate your tone so as to have a harder impact, is this not a propaganda tool? This makes me wonder how much are you exaggerating the facts? Or are you outright fabricating some of them? If you don't like others doing it why do you do it yourself?
I'm sorry if this seems like i'm putting you on the spot, but you simply have to play the game by the same rules you apply to others if your arguments are to appear effective. I think it's fine that if you disagree with WSS you investigate and publish material in favour of the DL, but please don't publish lies. In fact if the DL is to win the case, lies probably won't help. Why? Because as you have seen on this debate we're not clueless, and lies will not favor you. We won't let lies and other fabrications to allow what is happening, or to destroy our traditions. That's how these things tend to work. If the DL has been truthful and the WSS have been lying then the most probable outcome will be that the WSS and all Shugden practitioners will walk away with their tails between their legs and the DL's reputation will be restored. And the same for vice versa. Hopefully things will get resolved peacefully and everyone will come out winning. This is a completely possible thing, you know? But lies are not going to help things become any clearer. In Buddhism, like elsewhere, the function of a lie is to deceive. If we all speak our truths all will be resolved in time. This is a note to myself and comrades too, i'm sure we all make the odd exaggeration here and there, and the little fib or two as well. It doesn't help.
Best.
Harry
ok, well - thanks for posting my dissenting comments. you're honest and fair in doing that, and i appreciate it.
you take care too.
Harry
Well thanks for your lecture, all very revealing. It seems to say more about the state of mind of Shugden followers than the state of affairs regarding this controversy.
In all due respect, if you would like some light shone on this murky affair, then you should start to investigate beyond the bounds of your own comfort zone, the Shugden practitioners’ realm.
One of the trademarks of cults/memes is that follower don’t dare to look beyond their own confines for information for fear of having their own faith rattled.
A sure sign that they’re hooked on the hype spoon fed to them.
A lot of your contentions don’t make sense, neither in light of the facts, nor as a line of argument in itself.
I do invite you to do some more research and reading before you let all your opinions on this subject be set in concrete, as it seems they already are.
The breadth of your knowledge on this affair clearly appears as slim as the Shugden practitioners’ tenuous hold on credibility.
If practising Buddhism has imparted you anything it should be the ability to judge things not on what your mind’s interpretation of it is, but what the facts are telling you.
But to be able to do so one must actively seek out the facts without fear or favour!
Happy investigations.
Btw. How does this ban personally affect you?
Take care
I just like to say this to all the people who have taken umbrage at this post and feel that it unfairly chastises them, this is not the intention.
The intention is to get the issue aired and discussed.
Faults are made on both sides of such issues, but there are so many elements which come into play in this drama that it inevitably becomes a quagmire of claims and counterclaims.
I sincerely wish that some of the Shugden followers will find the strength and wisdom to seek out more particulars on this affair beyond their own ambit of their usual information sources.
In the meantime just concentrate on the real issue in life, the advancement of your spiritual progress towards your goal.
All this is just an unnecessary distraction, but it is only a distraction because one let’s it become one!
Take care all of you.
for what it's worth, i search everywhere i can and read everything i can find, from whatever source, in order to broaden my own understanding of this issue and to listen and give thought to all differing viewpoints so that i can make informed choices about how to act in this affair.
a distraction from spiritual practice? it can be, for sure, if i'm not very careful. in fact, it's very tempting at times just to bury my head in the sand and get on with my own "practice" whilst ignoring this horrible situation. but as i've indicated before, my understanding of karma - that the world i perceive is created by my own mind and actions - and my compassion for all those whose spiritual lives are being destroyed by the DL, just won't allow me to do nothing to help. after all, i took the Bodhisattva Vow many years ago.
simply, this is part of my spiritual practice, and my motivation is compassion.
i'm not trying to blow my own trumpet - i'm saying this because i believe i'm fairly typical of WSS supporters in this. in my experience, they're not the cultish drones you caricature.
as always, take care.
Veracity,
"A lot of your contentions don’t make sense, neither in light of the facts, nor as a line of argument in itself. "
Please shine me a light. I gave you plenty of valid arguments. I love debate in Buddhism and i'm keen to practice.
"if you would like some light shone on this murky affair, then you should start to investigate beyond the bounds of your own comfort zone, the Shugden practitioners’ realm."
"I do invite you to do some more research and reading before you let all your opinions on this subject be set in concrete, as it seems they already are."
You have put me in a box. You seem to imply that everyone that comes under the influence of Shugden becomes unable to make any objective analysis. I wasn't happy with the NKT practitioners getting involved this year. I challenged and questioned my friends, and i did a lot of research before i came to my conclusions. Since then i have spoken to many more people and carried on my research. In this time i have only come across two people opposing DS who have given me much food for thought. One of them, who goes by the name of Namdrol, i am very unsure about because although he is very scholarly he is clearly (to my mind anyway) very infatuated with himself, and the other one, Tenzin Peljor, i am still studying, and have debated with. He beat me in our debate by the way. So as you can see i for one am not that scared of looking outside of my comfort zone. Are you?
"Btw. How does this ban personally affect you?"
It doesn't affect me as badly as those in India and Tibet. It's quite sad to be labeled as non-Buddhist though. I feel uncomfortable saying i am a Shugden practitioner sometimes because i know people may raise their eyebrows. The other day i hung out with some lovely Buddhists who were in my town to listen to the DL, but i kept my mouth firmly tight about being Buddhist myself. I would like to hang out with other Buddhists more often and that there weren't these stupid rifts. There is the knowledge that in my town people may being told in the other centres that we are non-Buddhist. So yes, the ban does indeed affect me.
Best.
Harry
Thanks again Harry for your spirited comments.
You’re obviously on the right track in your observations of this controversy, seeking out contrary views and testing them against your own, a very Buddhist thing to do!
The demeanour of your vigorous defence of DS practice suggested otherwise though, but be it as it may, there is obviously something generating the need for it.
It would be a foolish thing to say that where there is smoke there is fire, and this controversy is cloaked in a lot of smoke, too much to see the fire, almost.
What transpired thought is the deep running political dimension this drama exhibits in the Tibetan exile community.
The other is the Chinese connection, their meddling, and fostering of the DS practice in Tibet, and support tendered in the exile community.
The third is the almost unfathomable western dimension which is manifest in these high profile protests and venomous publicity campaigns against the Dalai Lama.
The motivation of these blue eyed warriors appears quite troublesome.
Where do they take their cue from, what is their gripe that it compels them to resort to such unsavoury tactics?
The outward appearance of their behaviour is clearly at odds with that of a group of simple Buddhist practitioners.
So what is the common thread that ties all these actors together?
Obviously it is DS.
But not DS practice or the ban per se, this controversy goes back some three hundred odd years and runs much deeper.
The Gelugpa School, which poses the vast majority of the DS practitioners, lost its dominance from the old Tibet and is unwilling to submit to a more democratic TGIE.
Hence their ferocious opposition to any curtailment of their old privileges, identity, and practices.
Their scheming also would have DS replace the Nechung practice which has its roots in the Nyingma School, but is a practice of the Tibetan Government since the 17th century.
So is it DS himself; has he taken such a hold on his followers that it is a self fulfilling prophecy that his influence results in disharmony, derision and sectarianism in the Tibetan community?
The circularity here does not escape unnoticed.
One group feels the need to curtail and suppress the propitiation of this “deity”, as they see him as a worldly spirit intent on sowing discontent and disharmony.
Others see him as an emanation of Manjushri, as a fully enlightened Buddha, and a Dharma protector.
The question is really, how tolerant should the Dalai Lama be with the intolerant?
As DS clearly is the centre of a huge amount of controversy, and has been for nearly some four hundred years, all evidence points to the malevolent influence this deity manages to cast over the Tibetan nation.
So anyone persisting in propitiating this spirit either completely abrogates any concern for the welfare of the Tibetan nation, or is incapable of transcending the grip this deity exerts on his followers.
The 14th Dalai Lama’s attempts to ‘modernize’ Tibetan Buddhism, is really a reform which dispenses with aspects peculiar to Tibetan Buddhism, which has incorporated many traditions and beliefs from the pre Buddhist Bön religion.
In this sense it really is a return to the core tenets and teachings of the Buddha, for all the spirit worship are really Bön traditions.
Buddhism would greatly benefit if this reform is allowed to succeed, and spirit worship is dispensed with for good.
For the conquest of all emanations of the mind is Buddhism’s core tenet, the subjugation of tyranny the memes and genes!
We are all born gene machines and lean to become meme machines, hence Buddhism’s raison d'être, the freeing of man(kind) from such animalistic folly!
Take care
Hi Veracity,
I will once more refute some of your words, but if you can't refute my own material i won't bother continuing as we're not getting to any mutual understanding like this.
-"You’re obviously on the right track in your observations of this controversy, seeking out contrary views and testing them against your own, a very Buddhist thing to do!"
I'm not testing your views against my own, Veracity, i'm trying my best to test them with common sense. And i'm sorry if i haven't been succesful in any case. Like i said before refute me.
-"The demeanour of your vigorous defence of DS practice suggested otherwise though, but be it as it may, there is obviously something generating the need for it."
Am i more vigorous in my defense than you are in your attack? I fully accept your claim, i am vigorous in my defense. As far as i know there is nothing wrong with defending yourself from an attacker.
-"It would be a foolish thing to say that where there is smoke there is fire, and this controversy is cloaked in a lot of smoke, too much to see the fire, almost."
No doubt. But the fire will easily become visible if we take a close look. It will be made easier if both parties collaborate. If you can't even give my honesty the benefit of the doubt
I can only assume you have no intention to collaborate or to add a wider range of possibilities to your one-sided view. After all you cannot deny that for now your view is effectively one-sided. That would be like a banana walking around saying: "i'm pink". I am maybe more inclined to the side Shugden but i am trying to see the other side as well. To be honest, your contempt isn't help me get a wider view.
-"What transpired thought is the deep running political dimension this drama exhibits in the Tibetan exile community.
The other is the Chinese connection, their meddling, and fostering of the DS practice in Tibet, and support tendered in the exile community."
I have given you arguments on this before. One thing though: You do know that the DL is a politician don't you? And it is also common knowledge, for example, that he practiced DS for 40 years like i mentioned earlier. Also, although he claims that DS degenerates Buddhism into spirit-worship he relies upon a spirit himself (Nechung) for "intelligence gathering". Since Buddhas have way more "intelligence" than spirits why, being the great Buddhist master that he is does he not rely upon the first to gather some "intelligence"? Buddha's also posses wisdom which unlike intelligence has the means to judge what will bring people happiness and what will bring suffering. So again if he is so concerned about the welfare of his people and the world why does he consult the intelligent spirits instead of the wise Buddha's? He himself has admitted that it was Nechung who advised him to ban DS. I will also add that Buddha's are concerned with all living beings whereas Nechung is concerned with Tibet. So i agree this issue definitely smells of politics. If you can answer my questions and clarify my doubts on this you will be the first as i have not yet seen anything on the net that explains these things from a Buddhist perspective.
-"The third is the almost unfathomable western dimension which is manifest in these high profile protests and venomous publicity campaigns against the Dalai Lama.
The motivation of these blue eyed warriors appears quite troublesome.
Where do they take their cue from, what is their gripe that it compels them to resort to such unsavoury tactics?
The outward appearance of their behavior is clearly at odds with that of a group of simple Buddhist practitioners."
If you analyze the campaign i think that you will find it far from venomous. The police have highly praised the WSS for their peaceful demonstrations. Something that may prevent one from seeing this is a strong bias towards the DL. As we can see all over the world people are scared of questioning him. I will again remind you, the reason we have resorted to protesting is because the DL has ignored our request for dialogue for a very long time. If you think we are inventing this fact and hiding his replies, why doesn't he show some proof that this is so? The fact is he has not answered any of our many letters so he has no basis for pretending. Also you condemn the protests as if it is wrong for Buddhists to protest. Please prove to me with Buddhist (or non-buddhist logic if you wish) how this is wrong. You say we are un-peaceful. How? Is raising you're voice un-peaceful? Then many good mothers have got it quite wrong. Are the words "stop lying" and "give religious freedom" un-peaceful? How when the very voices that are uttering them are pleading for peace? Where the Bhurmese protests un-peaceful? Are the demonstrations that take to the streets to try and avoid wars un-peaceful? Once more please refute my contentions if, like you say, they don't make any sense.
-"The Gelugpa School, which poses the vast majority of the DS practitioners, lost its dominance from the old Tibet and is unwilling to submit to a more democratic TGIE.
Hence their ferocious opposition to any curtailment of their old privileges, identity, and practices."
One: Neither of the 4 schools have ever been involved much in politics. In Buddhism, Veracity, politics and religion don't tend to go well together. The great master, Shantideva, as well as many other masters strongly advised against their mixing. That the DLs happened to belong to the Gelug sect is one thing, but this doesn't mean that the whole Gelug tradition was politically involved. I repeat Gelug is a spiritual tradition, NOT a political party. I don't know a whole lot about this so of course i may well be wrong. But please explain how if so.
Two: In the case of NKT which is now a Western Buddhist tradition is no longer a part of Tibetan Buddhism. How can we be trying to regain control of something we are no longer part of, and have no interest in being? Do you think that if the DL died today, Kelsang Gyatso is going to run back to Tibet to try and gain political power? He's a bit to old for that don't you think? He's retiring next year and i doubt Kelsang Khyenrab has got much business in Tibet. Please explain in what way NKT are trying to gain political power in Tibet. Or if that's not what they want tell me what.
-"Their scheming also would have DS replace the Nechung practice which has its roots in the Nyingma School, but is a practice of the Tibetan Government since the 17th century."
I quote, can't remember from where: Everyone is accusing DS of being a spirit, but no one denies the fact that Nechung is a spirit.
DS doesn't have it's roots in Nyingma, it has them in Sakya.
-"So is it DS himself; has he taken such a hold on his followers that it is a self fulfilling prophecy that his influence results in disharmony, derision and sectarianism in the Tibetan community?"
I'm sorry but this is highly non-sensical. If DS is a minority, and proper Buddha worshipers are a majority, given the fact that Buddha's are way more powerful and influential than spirits, how come this spirit has overcome so many Buddha's? Nope sorry. I would say that what is more powerful than a spirit is delusions and if people aren't doing enough to overcome them they will certainly get embroiled in worldly affairs of spirits and politics. Virtue is the best antidote against a spirit. Refute me.
-"As DS clearly is the centre of a huge amount of controversy, and has been for nearly some four hundred years, all evidence points to the malevolent influence this deity manages to cast over the Tibetan nation."
Since delusions are more problematic than spirits, and a non-deluded person can easily overcome a spirit through virtue i would be careful in blaming everything on a meddlesome poltergheist. Yes it is very easy to blame a spirit for the problems of a nation. I suppose the middle-east and the US are afflicted by spirits instead of greed for money and power.
-"The 14th Dalai Lama’s attempts to ‘modernize’ Tibetan Buddhism, is really a reform which dispenses with aspects peculiar to Tibetan Buddhism, which has incorporated many traditions and beliefs from the pre Buddhist Bön religion.
In this sense it really is a return to the core tenets and teachings of the Buddha, for all the spirit worship are really Bön traditions.
Buddhism would greatly benefit if this reform is allowed to succeed, and spirit worship is dispensed with for good."
Explain Nechung then.
I hope you are well,
Harry
Hi Harry
Thanks again for your post, where the arguments are marked by a whole lot of confusion, and the argumentation ranges from the oblique to the disingenuous.
Testing of view:
I was referring to your purported discussions with other Buddhists where you even admitted to having lost the argument.
Vigorous defence:
I’m not attacking you, I’m laying out the facts as they present themselves.
Where there is smoke:
Well your language is rather revealing.
Have I shown ‘contempt’ for you?
Have I not indulged you in a discussion and give you a platform to air your views, no matter how specious and contrarian they may be?
Have I ever questioned your ‘honesty’?
You question my sincerity and my ‘intentions’.
Deep running political dimension:
You can’t reduce the Dalai Lama’s role to such simplicity. He has to take both aspects into consideration, political and religious.
Nechung is not a worship practice, but DS is. DS is no Buddha, but a worldly deity at best. Buddhism itself is taking care of all inclusive compassion, not the propitiation of a spirit like DS, this really belongs to the realm of superstition.
Western dimension:
First, calling the Dalai Lama a Liar, Dictator, Oppressor, Heretic, Opportunist, Persecutor, and many more such labels aren’t really the most obvious Buddhist thing to do. There are countless websites, leaflets and press releases disseminating this very message. This campaign looks rather like it’s coming from the CCP than so called Buddhist practitioners.
Second, and here your own words:
“In the case of NKT which is now a Western Buddhist tradition is no longer a part of Tibetan Buddhism.”
Why should the DL answer your letters if you’re not in any way connected to Tibetan Buddhism? If you’re completely separate, then why does the ban even concern you, which is a Tibetan affair?
And I surely was not referring to you blue eyed guys wanting to regain former privileges, as I said this is a Tibetan in Exile affair, you guys just latched onto it for the most intractable, malevolent reasons!
You have no gripe, no justification, and as you’ve said, you’re completely separate from the Tibetan Buddhist community.
Your involvement arises purely from the DS connection, which is fuels the derision on both sides.
The Gelugpa School:
By your own admission you don’t know much about it, well then get informed.
This runs through the whole lot of DS practitioners’ attempt at arguing their ill founded case, lack of knowledge, and what little they know is imbibed from their own sect, spoon fed and pre-digested spin.
Their scheming:
Please read and try to understand my points, Nechung is a Nyingma tradition, not DS.
So is it DS himself:
On evidence of the confused state of mind of DS practitioners, a case could clearly be made that DS propitiation itself is the cause for much of the woes surrounding this deity.
Here your own words:
“I would say that what is more powerful than a spirit is delusions and if people aren't doing enough to overcome them they will certainly get embroiled in worldly affairs of spirits and politics. Virtue is the best antidote against a spirit. Refute me.”
Very pertinent to DS practitioners, and your well advised to take your own advice!
The 14th Dalai Lama’s attempts to ‘modernize’:
Nechung is but a spirit, which is relied on by the TGIE, a political body, and is not part of the Buddhist practice by the Dalai Lama, or any Tibetans.
But DS is, and it is clearly a spirit worship which has wreaked devastation and havoc over the Tibetan community in exile, and within Tibet, and in large part thanks to the obtuse meddling by blue eyed DS followers.
All these points made by DS followers are taken out of context, mangled and turned upside down by the Shugden warriors, to score their malevolent points. They are so hollow and translucent, it is a mindboggling that they even think anyone would fall for these obtuse ploys.
And the Machiavellian role these blue eyed followers, under the guise of Buddhism, are playing in this is sordid affair is a disgrace to themselves; and their cloaking themselves in Buddhist garb is disingenuous to the extreme.
DS practice does, and always will bring nothing but heartache, derision and division to the practitioners.
It is by any measure not a Buddhist practice, and should be seen for what it is, a spirit worship and superstition, completely anathema to Buddhism.
But I doubt if any of this will ever enter a DS practitioner’s mind, for the hold this ‘deity’ has on his followers’ mind is such that there is no room for enlightened debate.
Well take care and concentrate on some genuine Buddhist practice - it is designed to clear the mind.
Veracity,
"Thanks again for your post, where the arguments are marked by a whole lot of confusion, and the argumentation ranges from the oblique to the disingenuous."
There is no obvious reason for me to continue this discussion.
I'm sorry if i upset you in any way.
Take care,
Harry
Well if you’re beaten you might as well pretend you’ve won, but never admit your defeat; that is if you actually realise you’re beaten.
Seldom have we come across a more confused, unapprised and obtuse lot, which is totally unable to grasp the most basic of argument, and displays a complete lack of ability for coherent, logical reasoning.
The Dalai Lama must be very wise in prohibiting the propitiation of this malevolent deity, for if this is the result, it clearly has devastating effects on practitioners’ minds.
Rather sad, inded.
hey veracity -
come on, man - you started off with some valid questions and points. but now (under a certain amount of provocation, granted) you're just being offensive.
"DS practice does, and always will bring nothing but heartache, derision and division to the practitioners.
It is by any measure not a Buddhist practice, and should be seen for what it is, a spirit worship and superstition, completely anathema to Buddhism."
Are you - seriously - claiming that a very large proportion of the great Gelugpa masters of the last century, including Trijang Rinpoche (who was a Ganden Throne-holder and root Guru of an entire generation of Gelugpa Masters including Lama Yeshe, Geshe Kelsang and the 14th Dalai Lama himself), Geshe Rabten, Song Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Kelsang, etc., etc., were/are ALL non-Buddhists, having broken their Refuge commitment by worshipping a spirit?
for the sake of your karma, please think very carefully before replying.
This does not have to logically follow, for these masters were practicing this out of a long line of custom, and considered it as part of their ancient tradition, but not necessarily as core Buddhist practice.
In that sense Tibetan Buddhism is peculiar, in that it incorporates such non Buddhist practices from the old Bön traditions and allows it to flourish along with the core Buddhist practice.
Nevertheless, it clearly is NOT Buddhist practice, not according to the Dharma.
These kinds of practices of propitiating deities or spirits, or whatever one likes to call them, are really quite peculiar to Tibetan Buddhism.
They clearly stem from pre Buddhist times where there apparently were countless of these spirits.
Padmasambhava ‘redirected’ these demons’ focus to being protectors and guardians of Tibet.
The Dalai Lama’s attempt to curtail some of these practices, particularly where they are done so in excess, and where the deity is very controversial, as in DS’s case, are just a return to true Buddhist roots and tenets.
As a DS practitioner, one should take a long and hard look at the merits, soundness, advantages and disadvantages this practice entails, and then decide if it really concurs with what one’s intentions are in practicing Buddhism in the first place.
Is DS propitiation really part and parcel, or necessary, or even conducive for the Dharma practice?
Be that as it may, the ban appears not to be affecting western practitioners, but they carry out a vendetta on behalf of some who have ulterior motives, the ban is just a spurious rues.
And that’s the sad part, that NKT/WSS’ites are being misused and manipulated by some to perpetrate a very sordid campaign the Tibetan community does not need, does not deserve, and for which there is no justification.
They already fight the most perverted, depraved criminal cabal this planet was ever forced to witness, and some of the rhetoric used by these blue eyed warriors looks as if taken straight from their handbook.
Not sure where you stand on this, but there is a thing called cost / benefit analysis, though in your case there seems to be no benefit, as there is no loss in the first place.
Take care
eracity -
once again - still - with respect, your points are almost entirely inaccurate. it's hypocritical (and embarrassing for you) to accuse Harry and, indeed, all DS practitioners, or the "blue-eyed warriors" of the WSS, of being ill-informed, and then to post such thoroughly misinformed and incorrect opinion as fact.
where on earth did you get the idea that relying on Dharmapalas is a pre-Buddhist, Tibetan Bon practice, or that the DL is trying to reduce the amount of spirit-propitiation in Tibetan Buddhism?
reliance on Dharmapalas is a tradition that extends right back to the very founding of Buddha's Vajrayana doctrine. it was only much later that it spread with Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism to Tibet and Japan, among other places, and then from those places to much of the modern world.
an authentic Dharmapala is a Buddha, or at least a Bodhisattva, and therefore relying on them is completely in accordance with Buddhist refuge.
there are also worldly protectors, such as the spirits bound by Guru Padmasambhava to help the Dharma in Tibet, but as these beings are not enlightened, nor have they realized ultimate truth, they are not reliable sources of refuge and no pure Buddhist relies on them as such.
while there is some debate over the nature of Dorje Shugden, there is none whatsoever about the nature of Nechung, nor that of the myriad of other worldly protectors propitiated in Tibet. you're clearly not aware that these practices of spirit propitiation have, far from being reduced under the current Dalai Lama's tenure, increased dramatically in recent years.
conversely, it is a characteristic of Dorje Shugden practitioners that they rely on and propitiate far fewer other protectors, especially worldly protectors, and instead rely far more on what, for them, is a fully-enlightened Buddha, a manifestation of Manjushri: Duldzin Dorje Shugden.
veracity - this is Mahayana Buddhism 101. your postings here betray an ignorance that really dismisses any right you can claim to post on this subject.
how dare you criticise, when you have shown yourself here to have such misunderstanding?
your points about Buddhism in your original article are well thought-out, well intentioned (as far as i can tell) and worthy of thought and discussion. but your later posts on Dorje Shugden practice and the Dalai Lama's ban on this practice have become more and more outrageous and inaccurate.
PLEASE - as you've repeatedly asked Dorje Shugden practitioners to do - educate yourself before spouting the TGIE's rhetoric for them, purely, it seems, on the basis of the Dalai Lama being the Dalai Lama.
if you don't even know what a Dharmapala is, how can you comment on Dorje Shugden?
you ARE being simply insulting now. for example, on what grounds do you imply, by suggesting that Dorje Shugden practitioners "should take a long and hard look at the merits, soundness, advantages and disadvantages this practice entails, and then decide if it really concurs with what one’s intentions are in practicing Buddhism in the first place" that they do not or have not done already this? EVERY Dorje Shugden practitioner i know - and i know a lot, both Tibetan and non-Tibetan - has, at some point in all this, sat down and taken a long, hard look at their practice. how could they not have done? do you really think that we could engage in these wrathful actions such as protesting, and incurred all the problems we've had to face as a result, WITHOUT having searched our hearts to check our motivation and beliefs? if so, you're a fool.
how can you say: "the ban appears not to be affecting western practitioners"? you ask: "Is DS propitiation really part and parcel, or necessary, or even conducive for the Dharma practice?" the answer is: yes, it is. Dorje Shugden is the Protector of the Ganden Oral Lineage, a core lineage of the Gelug tradition. if this Protector is destroyed, then his lineage is un-protected and will be destroyed: OUR lineage. if the Dalai Lama succeeds in rebranding Dorje Shugden practice as spirit worship, then he destroys this holy Dharma (his own lineage, for goodness' sake!). all Dorje Shugden practitioners, including your "blue-eyed warriors", will be branded non-Buddhists, and so our pure lineage will die out. who would want to find out about and practise a lineage that they believe amounts to no more than superstition and spirit worship? everyone would be put off, and they would thereby lose a precious opportunity to practise the holy Gedan tradition of Je Tsongkhapa.
as Kadampas and Gelugpas, we are this generation's custodians of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition. how can we allow it to be destroyed for the political gain of one man? how can we allow all future generations to be deprived of the opportunity to meet with, practise and realize the meaning of this holy Dharma? THIS is what we are campaigning for - not merely our Protector practice, but the life of the Tradition he protects.
please, veracity, THINK - maybe even research - before replying. if you're going to continue to post nothing but obtuse and insulting comments, i'm out of here.
i DO wish you all the best, but i also wish you'd see beyond your prejudice on this issue and display some of the intelligence and free-thinking hinted at in your original article.
I don't admit defeat, Veracity, i can simply see that you're not open to the possibility of being wrong. And you are not open to any idea that opposes that of Shugden being evil and his followers Nazis. Also despite your denials you insult me pretty much in every one of your posts, i have no need to explain. Would you feel like sharing your views with someone who has just said that they have seldom come across such a confused, unapprised and obtuse person as you? For the above reasons i don't see any reasons to carry on.
The readers will be able to make up their own minds.
Ps: If in any of my posts i was a bit provocative or you felt me to be insulting i apologize. If you can't give me any credit as DS practitioner judging the controversy, at least give me some credit as a human being apologizing, i'm not a heartless drone believe it or not.
Harry
Harry and whoever.
There are obviously irreconcilable differences, which divides both sides into diametrically opposed factions.
The Dalai Lama and many in his camp see Dorje Shugden as a worldly deity, and one that even has ill intent, and sows disharmony and derision.
DS followers on the other hand see him as an enlightened Buddha, an emanation of Manjushri even.
Historical evidence strongly suggests that the former view has more credence than the latter.
The latter view is of very recent emergence, and has not been observed in earlier writings.
If DS were an enlightened Buddha, it would unlikely be invoked through an oracle, like Kuten Lama, who happens to be a close relative of Kelsang Gyatso.
DS is also a fairly recent addition to the kaleidoscope of such deities, and is not in any way an age old tradition intrinsically bound to the Gelugpa School, as DS followers wish to portray it.
Far from being a destruction of the lineage, it is a restoration of the tradition founded by Je Tsonkhapa, the ‘great reformer’.
And this is one of the raison d'être of NKT, the maintenance of the purity of the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa.
It is idle to speculate on this, but perhaps Je Tsongkhapa might have approved of the dispensation of this controversial deity, which was unknown to him back in the 14th century, and him being the Great Reformer.
Nechung indeed is a worldly spirit, and no one makes a secret of this.
It is a deity invoked by the TGIE for their worldly guidance and is not propitiated as part of Buddhist practice.
The political dimension is undeniable, which runs deep in the Tibetan community in exile.
The Chinese have gotten a very strong hold over some DS practitioners through their open promotion and funding of this practice in Tibet proper, and financially assisting such followers in exile.
The western aspect is marked by very murky and dubious machinations by the leaders involved.
There are old axes to grind, clear affiliations with the Chinese, grievances from the past such as dismissals from monasteries, loss of influence in a more democratic TGIE, and having DS’s nature examined and found wanting.
The most charismatic aspect, point of difference, and core attraction for Buddhist teachings these leaders have to offer to westerners is DS, the foundation of their existence as venerated Geshes in the west.
These DS followers find themselves a minute minority and ostracised by their peers, for better or worse.
There is also the apparent rewriting of history to strengthen their case; the exaggeration of DS’s importance, historical significance and his nature.
I would equally urge the Tibetan community in exile to refrain from gratuitous marginalisation of such DS followers.
They should first examine their Buddhist principles and apply more discernment and compassion when dealing with these people.
Though this seems such a highly charged and sensitive issue that inevitably emotions run over on both sides, and prudence and common sense becomes a casualty.
And to the Dalai Lama, I would tender the advice that perhaps more dialogue would be helpful, rather than expect instant acceptance of such a drastic edict, for what is by all accounts a very dear practice to the followers concerned, regardless of the rights or wrongs thereof.
And as far as insults are concerned, on reflection I would refrain from expressing my view, it was provoked through the constant misrepresentation, disregard, taking out of context and inversion of my arguments.
For any offence I sincerely apologise.
Take care.
veracity -
thank you - accepted. i and others have used strong language here and in many other places to refute what we see as "misrepresentation, disregard, taking out of context and inversion of" the truth; but like you, our intention has never been to insult. i also apologise sincerely if i've caused anyone any upset.
in fact, i think you've summarised the key that can unlock this whole deadlocked situation:
"And to the Dalai Lama, I would tender the advice that perhaps more dialogue would be helpful, rather than expect instant acceptance of such a drastic edict, for what is by all accounts a very dear practice to the followers concerned, regardless of the rights or wrongs thereof."
i think everyone - as you say: regardless of ther views on the issue - can agree that this is the only way forward.
Well if only a small, incremental step toward a resolution of this controversy ensued from this exchange, then it was all worth it.
Not sure if any of the points made resonate with DS practitioners.
To me personally, Buddhism is what the blog attempted to describe, yet all the various traditions have their own unique way of pursuing these aims.
And each one, in their own right, must see their tradition as a valid vehicle to achieve the core tenets, so perhaps it would suggest that there is great flexibility in Buddhism, and nothing should be seen as set in concrete.
Traditions evolve and adapt, ‘modernise’, or find their way back to ‘core values’, whatever the case may be, as expounded in Buddhism, ‘nothing is permanent, bar change’!
So this should be taken into account on both sides of the arguments, and the innate wisdom of Buddhism should perhaps be called upon with more sincerity.
I sincerely hope that on both sides there will be a greater willingness to go forward and seek a genuine resolution, without having to resort to means ostensibly unbecoming of Buddhists and destroy the Sangha in the process.
Perhaps a re-examination of the Vinaya Piṭaka might be helpful on both sides.
Regards
veracity
Hi Veracity,
Thanks for your post, it provides a less one-sided view of the situation.
I hope the differences on both sides aren't like you say irreconcilable. Perhaps it's a bit naive of me to hope, but i would love to see Buddha's wisdom get the better of both parties so that the issue may be resolved peacefully. Being a New Kadampa myself i rely on other Buddhist deities like Shakyamuni and Mother Tara, so if DS is really spirit, i hope my other sources of inspiration will help me gain the wisdom to understand the situation.
I think you offer some good arguments in your post. I dare not offer my own opinion however, as you might think i am twisting them, and many insults may
follow :)
"Nechung indeed is a worldly spirit, and no one makes a secret of this. It is a deity invoked by the TGIE for their worldly guidance and is not propitiated as part of Buddhist practice."
This is true. Instead of misinterpreting your views, i would like to ask you more about this, as i am not really aware of how the government works, and i don't know how the DL juggles his religious and political responsibilities.
DS is a religious issue. Ok so perhaps he is a spirit and he is causing political problems in Tibet, but since many Buddhists worship this deity, spirit or not, it is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed from within the Buddhist community. This is where, for me, Nechung doesn't fit. If the job of Nechung is to give political advice, why does the DL rely on him to decide on the future of an until now (rightly or not) Buddhist practice? So after 40 years of practice he decides to check the books to find out more about DS, and he doesn't like what he sees. Fine. But then, just to make sure, he asks the political advisor's advice? I know for sure who Atisha would have asked if he was in doubt of a practice that his disciples were engaging in. He would have
consulted his friend and advisor Arya Tara, an enlightened being, not a regional spirit.
If HH instead told us: "just had Maitreya on the line and he reckons
Shugden is a spirit" i think it would have been a lot easier for the DS practitioners in Tibet and India to give up their practice. Perhaps he wouldn't have had to put up a ban at all, as DS practitioners used to have a lot of trust in him; they would have believed him saying Maitreya had spoken with him. I mean surely it would be better to tell a lie that blind faith will believe, than ostracize his own people and followers right?
Of course, if DS is a spirit causing political havoc, i have no probs with these issues being dealt with from a political perspective. It's just the religious side of the issue which i fail to comprehend.
Another thing which i don't get is how DS harms the DL's life span. He
practiced for 40 years and he is in his 70s. The pieces of the puzzle don't fit, is it just my obtuse and confused mind?
If you understand these things more than me, please shine me a light as i am in the dark.
Regards,
Harry
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